A&H

Junior/Youth Double Dissent

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JamesL said:
Sounds like two instances to me then. 1 for the original decision. And then sounds like he has dissented the temporary dismissal. So yes, in law it can be supported.
Do you think that you could have given him a final warning? Something like, look, I am cautioning for dissent. I warned you earlier and you haven't listened. It's a 10 minute sin bin for you.. Any further dissent or offences mean that you won't be able to continue in the game, I don't want to have to go down that route, so, if you calm down, I won't have to? Show the card and see how things progressed from there?
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Fair point. I think it’s one of those one off instances that you learn from.

Thank you for the feedback, definitely taken on board!
 
Alex Rush-Fear said:
@Mintyref and @Big Cat - a) were you there? If not I find it difficult to understand how you can come to the conclusion that it was "harsh" without being in possession of more information, e.g. what was said, how loudly, time between dissent #1 and dissent #2. b) The OP isn't asking for opinions about whether it was dissent or not - he clearly states that the player committed another act of dissent. He only asked whether he was correct to show the red card or not, and how to report it on WGS, both of which have now been answered.
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I understand your angle
But I'm right that we always come away from these incidents wondering what we could've done better; and there's almost always something

Speaking from experience, I recall a second C2 I issued before the sin bins came into effect. Without doubt the second was offinabus, but I was new to the game and learnt a lot from that mistake and whole experience. Perhaps the crappiest game I've done so far because my MC went south. So, I'm not pointing the finger as such, we're all in the same boat; reflecting on these incidents, returning to the next game armed with experience
 
JamesL said:
That relates to the timing ie 10 minutes commencing of the temporary dismissal. Our training here from our FA was that the player is temporarily dismissed from the point they commit the offence. The time of the temporary dismissal is from when play next restarts so any further offences, whether the referee starts the 10 minutes or not yet are considered as offences whislt temporarily dismissed. Otherwise you have a window where the player can offend again without fear of being removed from the match
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Fully aware and that is pretty much what my post implied. But note the use of the word 'period' in the second caution clause which creates the conflict. Take that word out and it can easily be interpreted the way we like it. Put it back in and you pretty much have no option but to apply it during the 10 minute 'period' only.
Again, I don't like it. It's not the way I would apply it. This is only to point out IFAB says something by do they really thinking through it. Proven time and time again.
 
Ge0rgeW said:
Just had a quick question regarding my U17 game today.

Player shouts across the pitch in frustration to his team not getting a foul. I deem it to be dissent and approach him to administer the caution. As I am taking his name, (so before I have shown the first yellow) he commits another act of dissent. I ended up showing him two yellows and then the red.

My questions are:
1) Was showing the red card card correct, because the first action was a sin bin offense so should he have been sin binned at all?
2) How would I log this on the WGS? A red or two separate sin bin yellows?

Any guidance would be appreciated :)
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This is where your game/player management skills come into it George. :)

There's been threads on here before about "continuing dissent" whilst in the process of cautioning for it and what each of us thinks and does in similar scenarios. ;)

You've already been advised and have noted that the red card shouldn't have been shown so at least you'll now know for future matches. :cool:

What you could do next time it ever happens (99.9% chance that it will ;)) whilst you're in the process of taking his name etc is firmly and loudly warn the player that if they open their/mouth or interrupt you one more time before you've issued the (sin bin) yellow then it's a second yellow and their match will be over. Maybe something along the lines of: "Okay player, you're already going off for 10 minutes - one more word and it's another sin bin card and you'll be staying off for good, it's up to you!!" You've asserted authority, maintained your match control and with any luck, they'll STFU and get away with just the mandatory 10 mins in the bin. If they don't comply with your warning, then you've given them every chance and their team mates will see that as well.

I'm not sure how old you are yourself, and whether or not being assertive in such a manner comes easily to you as it does for many of us, but it's a useful character trait to have and can help deflate or minimise a situation (such as this one) for the good of all concerned.

Just my own thoughts is all .... 👍
 
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Kes said:
This is where your game/player management skills come into it George. :)

There's been threads on here before about "continuing dissent" whilst in the process of cautioning for it and what each of us thinks and does in similar scenarios. ;)

You've already been advised and have noted that the red card shouldn't have been shown so at least you'll now know for future matches. :cool:

What you could do next time it ever happens (99.9% chance that it will ;)) whilst you're in the process of taking his name etc is firmly and loudly warn the player that if they open their/mouth or interrupt you one more time before you've issued the (sin bin) yellow then it's a second yellow and their match will be over. Maybe something along the lines of: "Okay player, you're already going off for 10 minutes - one more word and it's another sin bin card and you'll be staying off for good, it's up to you!!" You've asserted authority, maintained your match control and with any luck, they'll STFU and get away with just the mandatory 10 mins in the bin. If they don't comply with your warning, then you've given them every chance and their team mates will see that as well.

I'm not sure how old you are yourself, and whether or not being assertive in such a manner comes easily to you as it does for many of us, but it's a useful character trait to have and can help deflate or minimise a situation (such as this one) for the good of all concerned.

Just my own thoughts is all .... 👍
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It's a real difficult thing to advise on. I think self-reflection is the way forward, but not so much that it stays on our minds for longer then it should
I wonder how much we can learn people-skills through practice and experience, or whether it's just something we're naturally capable at. Police Officers are faced with this stuff every hour of every day. How much do they rely on 'natural' communication as opposed to training? It's a subject I find interesting. Are we any good at this aspect of refereeing? How do we figure out a way to reach good outcomes? Sometimes, we might play a blinder, other times we make things worse... I'm guessing you'd just shoot the player if they overstepped the mark 🔫
 
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Alex Rush-Fear said:
@Mintyref and @Big Cat - a) were you there? If not I find it difficult to understand how you can come to the conclusion that it was "harsh" without being in possession of more information, e.g. what was said, how loudly, time between dissent #1 and dissent #2. b) The OP isn't asking for opinions about whether it was dissent or not - he clearly states that the player committed another act of dissent. He only asked whether he was correct to show the red card or not, and how to report it on WGS, both of which have now been answered.
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I don't need to be there to view two yellows for an offence or offences in quick succession as this to be harsh.....it may have helped if the OP had given the full story, i.e. the initial warning.........and where was the usual escalation to involve the captain?
Surely even your rigid application of the laws has an occasional aberration where you allow some humanity into your officiating?
 
Big Cat said:
How do we figure out a way to reach good outcomes?
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I am going to get philosophical here. What is a good outcome? Is it keeping all 22 players on the field? Or is it making sure a player who deserves to be sent off gets what he deserves? How about just getting him to shut up for the rest of the game and just play? How about one of my games when the player apologised to me midway through the second half saying he didn't know why he was doing it. But it took one quiet talk, two public warnings, one sin bin and three on the run talks from me for him to realise it. Should I have given him that many chances?
I really don't know what happened in the OP. I can't picture it with the couple of posts here. It takes a lot more to understands the whole context. The atmosphere of the game, lead up incidents... How was the first sin bin caution delivered, the body language, was there any emotions involved, was it made about the person or about the action, the attitude of the entire team during the game and the incident...
All I can say is that the sport is not in very good shape that we are expected to 'control' and 'manage' fully grown men or women for a couple hours for misbehaving and in the short time we get with them to teach them how to act like adults.
 
Big Cat said:
I wonder how much we can learn people-skills through practice and experience, or whether it's just something we're naturally capable at. Police Officers are faced with this stuff every hour of every day. How much do they rely on 'natural' communication as opposed to training? It's a subject I find interesting.
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I generally think people-skills are something you have naturally but that are developed and honed in line with your years (of age) and certainly your job if applicable. It's for that reason that I think a lot of very young referees struggle in this area and have to operate quite impassively and dare I say "robotically" during a match in order to get through it .... :cool:
 
one said:
I am going to get philosophical here. What is a good outcome? Is it keeping all 22 players on the field? Or is it making sure a player who deserves to be sent off gets what he deserves? How about just getting him to shut up for the rest of the game and just play? How about one of my games when the player apologised to me midway through the second half saying he didn't know why he was doing it. But it took one quiet talk, two public warnings, one sin bin and three on the run talks from me for him to realise it. Should I have given him that many chances?
I really don't know what happened in the OP. I can't picture it with the couple of posts here. It takes a lot more to understands the whole context. The atmosphere of the game, lead up incidents... How was the first sin bin caution delivered, the body language, was there any emotions involved, was it made about the person or about the action, the attitude of the entire team during the game and the incident...
All I can say is that the sport is not in very good shape that we are expected to 'control' and 'manage' fully grown men or women for a couple hours for misbehaving and in the short time we get with them to teach them how to act like adults.
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Communication (appearance, demeanour, body language, vocabulary, expression, sense of humour, the whole shebang), is Number 1
A good outcome is one that we've had influence on
What tickles me, is that it's not an exact science. What works one day, doesn't have the same effect the next. There's no silver bullet
Like most things, it's a numbers game, the better we are at influencing people, the more often we'll reach a good outcome. Bad days are a fact of life for everyone, but that's what we get paid the big bucks for 💰
 
JamesL said:
It really isn't.
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I’m sure once you are used to it, it isn’t. But showing yellows and can a player be replaced or do you show them a red and then having to explain that to annoyed coaches who don’t know the rules. No thank you. Yellow for dissent, red for a second yellow.
 
Kes said:
Maybe something along the lines of: "Okay player, you're already going off for 10 minutes - one more word and it's another sin bin card and you'll be staying off for good, it's up to you!!"
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I fully agree that there is a key management issue here that can save the player from his own stupidity. and I think that as referees we should de-escalate situations when we can.

But I'd part company slightly on how to do it. IMHO, we want to avoid ultimatums and absolute statements of what we are going to do, as they can be boxes for us. For me, it's better to say something less explicit such as "you just got a caution, you might want to think about what you're starting to do right now." (Of course, pick language that fits your personality.) The message comes across without being as confrontational or creating a box for ref. Especially for newer refs, I would strongly discourage any absolute if/then threats, as they can haunt you.

(Aside: For those who want to think about de-escalation techniques, I found the book Verbal Judo thought provoking. It's written by a former cop who re-thought his approach to confrontation. Obviously our context isn't quite the same (we aren't physically dragging our miscreants out of cars!), but it still has some useful insights on thinking about a "win" and what we are really trying to accomplish in a confrontational situation.)
 
I've had to do it a few times, well before sin bins came in, but I would always advise trying to avoid a double yellow for dissent if you can manage it. Once he shows the second act of dissent explain that he will get another, preferably with the captain there. That way you have set him up for a fall and if he so much as says boo no one can have any complaints when he gets the second caution. Whereas without that players will always be surprised why a yellow card results in a sending off.

This also highlights why every referee operating at step 5 and below in England must know the sin bin rules off by heart. Luckily you've asked for advice on here, as submitting it on WGS as a sending off could cause unnecessary work for the CFA and potentially get you in hot water.
 
Once you’ve issued the yellow card to the player in the sin bin, is the player to remain on the side line for the remainder of the temporary dismissal then leave the surrounding area?

Or go at the point of issuing the YC? Thanks
 
Degnann said:
I’m sure once you are used to it, it isn’t. But showing yellows and can a player be replaced or do you show them a red and then having to explain that to annoyed coaches who don’t know the rules. No thank you. Yellow for dissent, red for a second yellow.
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I think it could be a smidge easier with a different coloured card for temp dismissals but once you are doing it and have learnt it makes sense.
 
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