Junior/Youth Double Dissent

[Ge0rge]

Just had a quick question regarding my U17 game today.

Player shouts across the pitch in frustration to his team not getting a foul. I deem it to be dissent and approach him to administer the caution. As I am taking his name, (so before I have shown the first yellow) he commits another act of dissent. I ended up showing him two yellows and then the red.

My questions are:
1) Was showing the red card card correct, because the first action was a sin bin offense so should he have been sin binned at all?
2) How would I log this on the WGS? A red or two separate sin bin yellows?

Any guidance would be appreciated

 

[callmemyref]

Interesting question

 

[SW20]

Sounds like he should've been sin binned for the initial act of dissent and then shown another YC for a further act of dissent, meaning he would've had to serve a double stint in the sin bin and wouldn't have been able to return to the game once the 20 minutes was up. He would've been eligible to be replaced by another player though. I'm not 100% sure on whether the two sin bin offences would stack into 20 minutes or not though I must admit.

As for WGS, not sure again but surely you would follow the normal process as you would for any other red card that involves 2 cautions?

 

[one]

Hi mate. Laws of the game define dissent to be:
Dissent
Public protest or disagreement (verbal and/or physical) with a match official’s decision; punishable by a caution (yellow card)

note the disagreement is against the match officials decision. So it looks like a first act was NOT dissent. I'd be interested to know what his second action was.

 

[socal lurker]

Hi mate. Laws of the game define dissent to be:
Dissent
Public protest or disagreement (verbal and/or physical) with a match official’s decision; punishable by a caution (yellow card)

note the disagreement is against the match officials decision. So it looks like a first act was NOT dissent. I'd be interested to know what his second action was.

Hmm. I guess we’d need more detail; from the description, I’m picturing this as dissent. He’s shouting across the pitch about not getting a foul call.

 

[one]

Hmm. I guess we’d need more detail; from the description, I’m picturing this as dissent. He’s shouting across the pitch about not getting a foul call.

You added the word 'call'. I am picturing it being about his team mate not about the referee.

Assuming his first offence was indeed dissent as was his second one, this is what the law says:

Then he is off and a red card would be appropriate. Although some may say the second offence is not a cautionable offence. It's an area of debate.

 

[JamesL]

Sounds like he should've been sin binned for the initial act of dissent and then shown another YC for a further act of dissent, meaning he would've had to serve a double stint in the sin bin and wouldn't have been able to return to the game once the 20 minutes was up. He would've been eligible to be replaced by another player though. I'm not 100% sure on whether the two sin bin offences would stack into 20 minutes or not though I must admit.

As for WGS, not sure again but surely you would follow the normal process as you would for any other red card that involves 2 cautions?

Nope.
If a player commits another offence whilst in the sin bin they take no further part and cannot be replaced.
You would report this as 2 c2 cautions, 1 as c2 sin bin and 1 as c2 no sinbin and give the reason in the box as to why no sinbin ie player was already temporarily dismissed at the time of the second offence.
You would not show a red card nor report it as one.

 

[JamesL]

Just had a quick question regarding my U17 game today.

Player shouts across the pitch in frustration to his team not getting a foul. I deem it to be dissent and approach him to administer the caution. As I am taking his name, (so before I have shown the first yellow) he commits another act of dissent. I ended up showing him two yellows and then the red.

My questions are:
1) Was showing the red card card correct, because the first action was a sin bin offense so should he have been sin binned at all?
2) How would I log this on the WGS? A red or two separate sin bin yellows?

Any guidance would be appreciated

Hi George
I would report it correctly ie as two c2 cautions 1 sinbin, 1 not.
However, you might want to also send an extraordinary report to say you showed the player a red card in error and give a brief explanation of what happened so the county are aware if the club question it.

Reading back your Op I would question whether you should have viewed this is as one overall dissent rather than two separate instances.

 

[Mintyref]

Just had a quick question regarding my U17 game today.

Player shouts across the pitch in frustration to his team not getting a foul. I deem it to be dissent and approach him to administer the caution. As I am taking his name, (so before I have shown the first yellow) he commits another act of dissent. I ended up showing him two yellows and then the red.

My questions are:
1) Was showing the red card card correct, because the first action was a sin bin offense so should he have been sin binned at all?
2) How would I log this on the WGS? A red or two separate sin bin yellows?

Any guidance would be appreciated

Harsh...........

 

[GraemeS]

Sounds like he should've been sin binned for the initial act of dissent and then shown another YC for a further act of dissent, meaning he would've had to serve a double stint in the sin bin and wouldn't have been able to return to the game once the 20 minutes was up. He would've been eligible to be replaced by another player though. I'm not 100% sure on whether the two sin bin offences would stack into 20 minutes or not though I must admit.

As for WGS, not sure again but surely you would follow the normal process as you would for any other red card that involves 2 cautions?

The key point that might help everyone in future is the question of when the player becomes "in the sin bin".

My training last pre-season answered that question with "as soon as the referee decides he is sin binned". So the fact that you hadn't yet been able to show the yellow is irrelevant - as soon as you think "sin bin for number ##", any further offence after that point becomes effectively an offence while in the sin bin, even if he's not yet off the pitch and even if you haven't actually shown a card.

So for me, the correct answer to the OP is a caution and sin bin for the first offence (I'm happy to accept the opinion of the referee in the moment), followed by a caution while in the sin bin for the second offence. The nature of that second offence is irrelevant, as that means he will take no further part in the game, but should not have required a red card. Although, as is often the case, saying no red card is required is unnecessarily confusing - much simply to use the already existing symbol for "Your match is over", but for whatever reason IFAB have decided that's not appropriate?

 

[ARF]

So for me, the correct answer to the OP is a caution and sin bin for the first offence (I'm happy to accept the opinion of the referee in the moment), followed by a caution while in the sin bin for the second offence. The nature of that second offence is irrelevant, as that means he will take no further part in the game, but should not have required a red card.

This is the correct answer (as @JamesL said, the player cannot be replaced after the 10 minutes)

 

[Big Cat]

Just had a quick question regarding my U17 game today.

Player shouts across the pitch in frustration to his team not getting a foul. I deem it to be dissent and approach him to administer the caution. As I am taking his name, (so before I have shown the first yellow) he commits another act of dissent. I ended up showing him two yellows and then the red.

My questions are:
1) Was showing the red card card correct, because the first action was a sin bin offense so should he have been sin binned at all?
2) How would I log this on the WGS? A red or two separate sin bin yellows?

Any guidance would be appreciated

Very much in agreement with @Mintyref 's comment of 'harsh'
When does one act of dissent stop and the next one start? Your report sounds like a single instance of dissent in that the player has not been afforded the opportunity to cool off. You must ask yourself if you could've handled the incident better, or did anything you did or say exacerbate any quarrel. The answer to this is almost always going to be, 'yes'. This is a question of Match Control

 

[ARF]

@Mintyref and @Big Cat - a) were you there? If not I find it difficult to understand how you can come to the conclusion that it was "harsh" without being in possession of more information, e.g. what was said, how loudly, time between dissent #1 and dissent #2. b) The OP isn't asking for opinions about whether it was dissent or not - he clearly states that the player committed another act of dissent. He only asked whether he was correct to show the red card or not, and how to report it on WGS, both of which have now been answered.

 

[one]

The key point that might help everyone in future is the question of when the player becomes "in the sin bin".

My training last pre-season answered that question with "as soon as the referee decides he is sin binned". So the fact that you hadn't yet been able to show the yellow is irrelevant - as soon as you think "sin bin for number ##", any further offence after that point becomes effectively an offence while in the sin bin, even if he's not yet off the pitch and even if you haven't actually shown a card.

So for me, the correct answer to the OP is a caution and sin bin for the first offence (I'm happy to accept the opinion of the referee in the moment), followed by a caution while in the sin bin for the second offence. The nature of that second offence is irrelevant, as that means he will take no further part in the game, but should not have required a red card. Although, as is often the case, saying no red card is required is unnecessarily confusing - much simply to use the already existing symbol for "Your match is over", but for whatever reason IFAB have decided that's not appropriate?

While I agree with you there, the LOTG has not done us any favours the way the have worded it. They don't use "in sin bin". The wording clearly says the second caution must be "during temporary dismissal period" and it also says "The temporary dismissal period begins when play restarts after the player has left the field of play".
I think, again, they have said something but meant something else for if another sanctionable offence after the first offence.

 

[Ge0rge]

I had previously warned the player about dissent hence the first caution was more than justified IMO. So when the player made the second comment, I felt that was also a separate event and he knew exactly what he was doing, hence the second act of dissent.

Many thanks for all the help!

 

[santa sangria]

I had previously warned the player about dissent hence the first caution was more than justified IMO. So when the player made the second comment, I felt that was also a separate event and he knew exactly what he was doing, hence the second act of dissent.

Many thanks for all the help!

This helps explain the first caution better - because in the OP it sounded harsh!

Beyond these acts, why was this player such a problem? Can you think back to a moment in the game when the problems started - anything you would do differently or note?

 

[JamesL]

While I agree with you there, the LOTG has not done us any favours the way the have worded it. They don't use "in sin bin". The wording clearly says the second caution must be "during temporary dismissal period" and it also says "The temporary dismissal period begins when play restarts after the player has left the field of play".
I think, again, they have said something but meant something else for if another sanctionable offence after the first offence.

That relates to the timing ie 10 minutes commencing of the temporary dismissal. Our training here from our FA was that the player is temporarily dismissed from the point they commit the offence. The time of the temporary dismissal is from when play next restarts so any further offences, whether the referee starts the 10 minutes or not yet are considered as offences whislt temporarily dismissed. Otherwise you have a window where the player can offend again without fear of being removed from the match

 

[JamesL]

I had previously warned the player about dissent hence the first caution was more than justified IMO. So when the player made the second comment, I felt that was also a separate event and he knew exactly what he was doing, hence the second act of dissent.

Many thanks for all the help!

Were the comments about the same decision? When you say a second comment, how far apart? I tend to agree that from your descripts so far that they appear to be one instance, but as Alex pointed out I wasn't there and you were the referee, it was your opinion..
Sometimes, when a player is causing a problem we can look for a way to get rid of them, ie treat the dissent separately so you get the outcome you want, but not perhaps what the game required or expected.
I'm not saying you were wrong, as I wasn't there, it's hard to say, but I would say really consider if there were really two separate offences here, or whether it was more of a prolonged period of dissent.

 

[Ge0rge]

Were the comments about the same decision? When you say a second comment, how far apart? I tend to agree that from your descripts so far that they appear to be one instance, but as Alex pointed out I wasn't there and you were the referee, it was your opinion..
Sometimes, when a player is causing a problem we can look for a way to get rid of them, ie treat the dissent separately so you get the outcome you want, but not perhaps what the game required or expected.
I'm not saying you were wrong, as I wasn't there, it's hard to say, but I would say really consider if there were really two separate offences here, or whether it was more of a prolonged period of dissent.

After he made the first comment, I called him over and I explained what was happening. I asked his name and then he told me his first name as I asked for his second name as well, he basically told me to shut up. Now I appreciate that it’s low level dissent, but he knew exactly what he was doing and if I let a comment like that go unpunished, IMO I lose a lot of match control, more than I could have lost when showing the red, hence the second caution. But, I do accept that it was not the correct procedure and the red should not have been shown. These friendly games are where I would prefer to make mistakes (if I have to make some this season!)

Many Thanks!

 

[JamesL]

After he made the first comment, I called him over and I explained what was happening. I asked his name and then he told me his first name as I asked for his second name as well, he basically told me to shut up. Now I appreciate that it’s low level dissent, but he knew exactly what he was doing and if I let a comment like that go unpunished, IMO I lose a lot of match control, more than I could have lost when showing the red, hence the second caution. But, I do accept that it was not the correct procedure and the red should not have been shown. These friendly games are where I would prefer to make mistakes (if I have to make some this season!)

Many Thanks!

Sounds like two instances to me then. 1 for the original decision. And then sounds like he has dissented the temporary dismissal. So yes, in law it can be supported.
Do you think that you could have given him a final warning? Something like, look, I am cautioning for dissent. I warned you earlier and you haven't listened. It's a 10 minute sin bin for you.. Any further dissent or offences mean that you won't be able to continue in the game, I don't want to have to go down that route, so, if you calm down, I won't have to? Show the card and see how things progressed from there?