Everton - Forest
- Thread starter cwyeary
- Start date
Charitable reading - Clatts phoned Webb to ask him if this was a conflict of interests, he/Forest considered that putting in a request, Webb didn't consider it as such.
Uncharitable reading - just as you said.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
Shouldn't be the case though.
All that's required is decent eyesight, a sound knowledge of the LOTG and the ability to get the video operator to show you what you need. Any number of EFL officials could hold their hands up for that.
Agree, there was pretty much zero force and Reyna then flung himself to the floor.
I believe it is a FIFA / IFAB requirement that VAR officials should have operated as a referee at the level VAR is used at. Like it or not there is also the credibility angle, can someone who has never refereed in the professional game make decisions involving the top teams and players in the World? It would only be a matter of time before a manager came out with something like "how can he make a decision like that, he's never refereed in front of more than 100 people".
Other question is how would they specialise from L3 when VAR is only used in the top division? You only get better at something by doing it in real life, it is similar to why young footballers get sent out on loan to gain experience. They get brilliant training at their parent club, top coaches, top facilities, but nothing replicates a competitive game so they have to go out on loan. I don't really see how VAR would be any different, they could get all the classroom training in the world, but actually doing it on a game watched by hundreds of millions worldwide is an entirely different thing.
My pennies worth…
Football comments:
Pen 1: Would be soft. Seen them given, but not convinced.
Pen 2: I think based on the interpretation of the LOTG this season it is a pen. I think the law is incorrect, but these have been given a lot!
Pen 3: I think this is a nailed on penalty.
Nottingham Forest behaviour:
I’d say laughable, but it’s not funny. It is petulant libellous behaviour. To accuse someone of corruption (albeit indirectly) is really poor. I think MC has always had his own interests at heart and has clearly decided to burn any bridges with any of the people who helped him get where he is now.
Football comments:
Pen 1: Would be soft. Seen them given, but not convinced.
Pen 2: I think based on the interpretation of the LOTG this season it is a pen. I think the law is incorrect, but these have been given a lot!
Pen 3: I think this is a nailed on penalty.
Nottingham Forest behaviour:
I’d say laughable, but it’s not funny. It is petulant libellous behaviour. To accuse someone of corruption (albeit indirectly) is really poor. I think MC has always had his own interests at heart and has clearly decided to burn any bridges with any of the people who helped him get where he is now.
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How many games has your fictional manager refereed in front of hundreds?
This is a theoretical suggested improvement. Current IFAB requirements don't have to factor in unless they actually have merit.
And every referee has to do their first PL game at some point, referees don't spring from the ether with 100 matches under their belts. Note the "eg" in front of L3. The whole concept doesn't suddenly fall down if that has to be (eg) L1 in reality.
How do current VAR's gain the experience and practice before they do it for real? Do that with a specialist.
It isn't relevant how many games the manager has refereed, he isn't a referee. But he certainly won't have managed his first game in the EPL, in most cases he will have built up his experience through lower levels. Even where a manager starts at the top level like Arteta they will have played and coached at that level so have extensive experience of it, hugely different to a L3 referee officiating an EPL game in any guise. Even if it is League 1 officials, it is still a big jump in football standard from refereeing at Morecambe or Fleetwood to EPL level.
Agree that every referee has to do their first EPL game somewhere, but they don't go from refereeing in the Isthmian or Southern Leagues to the EPL. The current VARs don't really gain experience, other than SG2s perhaps doing the odd lower profile game, but they have all refereed at the top levels.
I don't disagree with it in principal, but it will never happen as just would never be credible, and for that reason FIFA and IFAB would never support or allow it.
Runner Ref
Member
I think all 3 are decent shouts for a penalty, especially the last one. I can live without first one being given, and then the handball one changes depending on which way the wind is blowing and whether there is a full moon that evening. The guidance for handball gets more confusing each season. An expected position can practically be justified in any which way possible.
I don't particularly rate Attwell as a referee or VAR, but I don't think the PGMOL have done him any favours by putting him in this position. He isn't going to have done it intentionally, as has been the online conspiracy, but the powers that be shouldn't be putting him in such a situation.
I don't think @GraemeS idea is necessarily the worst in the world. I'm not 100% convinced that you need to have been involved at the highest level to then develop into a VAR at the highest level. Its a different skill set to a referee, just like AR and even 4O is. Plenty of managers have got to the top level without having played there. Les Parry got the Tranmere job (granted not PL) and he was the physio!
Gary O'Neil got the Bournemouth job after a few months as an assistant and a few months as a youth team coach. So he hardly earned his managerial stripes before getting to the big time
I don't particularly rate Attwell as a referee or VAR, but I don't think the PGMOL have done him any favours by putting him in this position. He isn't going to have done it intentionally, as has been the online conspiracy, but the powers that be shouldn't be putting him in such a situation.
I don't think @GraemeS idea is necessarily the worst in the world. I'm not 100% convinced that you need to have been involved at the highest level to then develop into a VAR at the highest level. Its a different skill set to a referee, just like AR and even 4O is. Plenty of managers have got to the top level without having played there. Les Parry got the Tranmere job (granted not PL) and he was the physio!
Gary O'Neil got the Bournemouth job after a few months as an assistant and a few months as a youth team coach. So he hardly earned his managerial stripes before getting to the big time
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This is obviously seeclation from me (and I havet read the 4 pages on this thread!). But to get the appointment it's probably safe to assume Atwell didn't nominate Luton as the club he supports. Clattenburg obviously knows Atwell so has he contacted Webb the day before (as some journos are saying) to inform them? If as speculated, Webb kept him on the gane as he's unaware that he supports Luton, then has MC ratted put his former colleague or is his getting his info from other refs and it's a case if Chinese whispers?
Whatever has happened, Clattenburg is coming across as a bit of a snake and not to be trusted. I imagine it's very likely that PL refs have been told not to communicate with him anymore. What a mess.
Whatever has happened, Clattenburg is coming across as a bit of a snake and not to be trusted. I imagine it's very likely that PL refs have been told not to communicate with him anymore. What a mess.
Runner Ref
Member
Obviously you have to take it all with a pinch of salt, but there's plenty of articles online, some which date back to 2010, that state Attwell supports Luton
Of course it could just be a rumour that has snowballed.......
Which teams do the Premier League referees support?
Despite all the accusations of big-club bias, not one top-flight referee supports Manchester United or Liverpool. Swindon, however…
www.planetsport.com
Of course it could just be a rumour that has snowballed.......
One of the journalists said today that the refs have to state which club they support at the outset, then PGMOL select geographically. ie if he supported Birmingham, he wouldn't be able to ref Villa...however, he could ref West Brom as that's not their nearest rivals.
Runner Ref
Member
Yeah, there's a lot of cogs turning when officials are appointed. Mike Dean refereed Liverpool & Everton, despite living on The Wirral (literally the other side of the river for those that don't know). Yet he was removed from the 2006 FA Cup final as Liverpool madr it to the final. So geography plays a part, but isn't the complete decision maker.
Who counts as a rival will differ season to season and even week to week. Would LTFC and NFFC have been rivals in any way 12 months ago? No. Are they now? I'd say yes. They're fighting each other for survival. If it is indeed true that Attwell is a Luton fan, which PGMOL will know, it's just idiotic to put him anywhere near it.
FinalWhistle
Armchair Referee
Forest have demanded that referee audio of the incidents be released to the public domain.
Nottingham Forest ask PGMOL to release audio from Everton game
Nottingham Forest have asked the Professional Game Match Officials Board to release audio from three key incidents in their Premier League defeat at Everton.
www.bbc.co.uk
Keith Hackett yet again promoted himself on talkSPORT, saying how none of this would have happened in his day as the referees had to declare who they support. Yes Keith, exactly the same as they have to do today.
I wonder who was in charge of PGMOL when Mark Halsey was appointed to a QPR game, the club that he was a self-declared life long supporter of?
I wonder who was in charge of PGMOL when Mark Halsey was appointed to a QPR game, the club that he was a self-declared life long supporter of?
Runner Ref
Member
I had hoped Howard Webb coming in would improve things, as Mike Rileys stint had definitely run its course and there were too many issues. As you say, Hackett forgets that things weren't perfect under him. Back when he was in charge, there was no way near the focus on referees as there is nowadays. So issues end up being blown up even more.
Runner Ref
Member
This is similar tactics to what Rangers requested earlier in the season after one of the Old Firm games. I'm all for transparency and giving the viewing audience as much insight as possible, but releasing this audio isn't really going to change things or give anyone closure- unless they're somehow expecting to overhear Attwell singing Luton songs down the microphone.Forest have demanded that referee audio of the incidents be released to the public domain.
Nottingham Forest ask PGMOL to release audio from Everton game
Nottingham Forest have asked the Professional Game Match Officials Board to release audio from three key incidents in their Premier League defeat at Everton.www.bbc.co.uk
But you can pretty much guess what the audio with say;
1st appeal- not enough contact
2nd appeal- expected position
3rd appeal- this is the one that could be interesting, as AT signals to say defender got the ball. But I'm guessing it would be another not enough contact
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
Hackett sounded embarrassing. He and Clattenburg are not helping referees generally and I’m looking forward to them getting some comeuppance.
deusex
RefChat Addict
To call that minimal/zero force I find incredible.
If you are honestly telling me you're not giving a free kick for that in the centre circle I simply don't believe you and can only assume you're continuing your regular position of backing the ref no matter what.
Young was trying to clear the ball in the penalty area. Why would he use minimal force to try and clear a ball?