A&H

Far too many L4/5s

RustyRef said:
Yeah, agree with that. I think I've only pinged an AR once for a missed offside, and that was luck on my part as it was a ground where the only stand is behind the goal so I just happened to be stood directly behind him when he missed it. I'm not criticising an AR for an offside decision when they are level and I'm not, at least not unless it is an absolute howler.
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To be fair, I have seen an observer indicate an incorrect offside on one occasion (not me thankfully). Sometimes, if you're unlucky (or lucky), they sit right behind one of the ARs. In two seasons I've had everything from 71.0 to 74.0
My problem with it, is I had a good game for the 71.0 but the Ref didn't need me
The 74.0 was pure fluke. Everything happened in my doorstep. I couldn't miss any of it, including a headbutt on my side of an MC that couldn;t possibly be seen by the R or AR1. The scores count for next to nothing unless you're a 4ASR or whatever the code is
 
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Big Cat said:
To be fair, I have seen an observer indicate an incorrect offside on one occasion (not me thankfully). Sometimes, if you're unlucky (or lucky), they sit right behind one of the ARs. In two seasons I've had everything from 71.0 to 74.0
My problem with it, is I had a good game for the 71.0 but the Ref didn't need me
The 74.0 was pure fluke. Everything happened in my doorstep. I couldn't miss any of it, including a headbutt on my side of an MC that couldn;t possibly be seen by the R or AR1. The scores count for next to nothing unless you're a 4ASR or whatever the code is
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I wouldn't say they mean next to nothing as they will count for things like play off appointments, but certainly agree with the rest.
 
Issue with specialising too soon is the mind set of those who haven't achieved 3 as a referee but we are seeing some 4's race through to Step 1 and beyond. Because so many 4/3's resent assisting, the standard at steps 2/3 are simply not good enough and observers ignore wrong doing. I've had an assistant this season get an offside woefully wrong and it wasn't looked at on footage or placed in the report. I know countless 3's who celebrated their removal from Step 2 lines due to low observer marks.
 
I quite like middles and lines
Only trouble being, am a bit big for the line. I'm quick when i get to full speed, but so is the Flying Scotsman. There was a massive divot went up in the air when I quickly changed direction at Harrow Borough on Boxing Day. It was laughable and it did get laughed at
 
Viridis1886 said:
Really?

There are L4s as AR on EFL games? Shirley Knott?
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I'm not sure if this is as yet true. However the introduction of the Specialist AR route for (some) Level 4's has certainly opened up the possibility. Until recently, referees needed to attain L3 before being able to specialise and progress solely as an AR ... even in that context there were plenty of officials temporarily in dual roles, reffing at Step 3/4 and assisting on the EFL.

The standards of performance required to progress at lining from Step 3/4 to Step 2, then Step 1 and then EFL means that anyone who achieves this (regardless of their notional referee level attained) has completely earned the right to be on those games.
 
RefGod said:
Issue with specialising too soon is the mind set of those who haven't achieved 3 as a referee but we are seeing some 4's race through to Step 1 and beyond. Because so many 4/3's resent assisting, the standard at steps 2/3 are simply not good enough and observers ignore wrong doing. I've had an assistant this season get an offside woefully wrong and it wasn't looked at on footage or placed in the report. I know countless 3's who celebrated their removal from Step 2 lines due to low observer marks.
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To those who celebrate I would say poor professionalism.
 
Kes said:
I'm still of the opinion that the new passage from 7-5 is far too easy. Having stricter marking criteria, maybe a mandatory fitness test and perhaps even a mandatory number of seasons between promotion levels might be something to consider .. (?)
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I agree. Myself considered getting from 7 to 5 too easy. And not necessarily because a lack of self-esteem, I just know how good (or not) I was.
On the other hand I see often really fit referees that are not that great as L5-L4 and also see L7-L6 that are truly amazing.
 
David G said:
To those who celebrate I would say poor professionalism.
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Extremely common. Many 3s are also very open about their resentment of Step 2 lines and look forward to going middle only at the earliest opportunity. As they often only line once every few months, they simply do the bare minimum knowing that removal is desired.

I don't agree however that every promotion down the AR route is deserved, particularly 4s moving on from Contrib. It's possible to receive enough observations on Step 4 fixtures only and gain promotion to Step 2 having never officiated at Step 3. Not all Contrib fixtures are observed either so the merit table will not be an accurate reflection. In my experience, it's Step 1 where real AR ability is noticed and Observers adequately do their job in relation to acceptable performance.
 
RefGod said:
Extremely common. Many 3s are also very open about their resentment of Step 2 lines and look forward to going middle only at the earliest opportunity. As they often only line once every few months, they simply do the bare minimum knowing that removal is desired.

I don't agree however that every promotion down the AR route is deserved, particularly 4s moving on from Contrib. It's possible to receive enough observations on Step 4 fixtures only and gain promotion to Step 2 having never officiated at Step 3. Not all Contrib fixtures are observed either so the merit table will not be an accurate reflection. In my experience, it's Step 1 where real AR ability is noticed and Observers adequately do their job in relation to acceptable performance.
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The ARs are letting themselves down by simply doing the bare minimum & imho don’t deserve to get a middle! Players, clubs & the Referee deserve for all officials to do their best. How would they feel if given a middle knowing that their ARs are not giving it their all (as they didn’t). It would soon bring them back to the real world if an AR intervened for a penalty which the Referee supported & turned out the MCS panel rejected the decision which would affect the Referee’s mark. Also, all Step 2 games are Observed & AR ability (or not as the case may be) is noticed.
 
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Would it be possible to retain being an L4 referee, but be promoted as an assistant? Or would I have to go specialist?
I quite enjoy being an AR but would like to continue middles as well.

I finished 49/1022 for 2023 annual which doesn't feel too far off with a bit of tidying
 
MattTheRef said:
Would it be possible to retain being an L4 referee, but be promoted as an assistant? Or would I have to go specialist?
I quite enjoy being an AR but would like to continue middles as well.

I finished 49/1022 for 2023 annual which doesn't feel too far off with a bit of tidying
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FYI I finished 20th last year and it wasn't good enough (22/23 season).
 
MattTheRef said:
Would it be possible to retain being an L4 referee, but be promoted as an assistant? Or would I have to go specialist?
I quite enjoy being an AR but would like to continue middles as well.

I finished 49/1022 for 2023 annual which doesn't feel too far off with a bit of tidying
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es1 said:
FYI I finished 20th last year and it wasn't good enough (22/23 season).
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As far as I'm aware you can only be promoted line only if you're a specialist assistant, even if you finished 1/1000 odd.

I actually get the impression (albeit with no basis whatsoever) that specialist assistants are in their own league table separate from the rest. That could be wildly wide of the mark though.

I believe the only purpose of a dualing level 4's assistant referee marking table is to help determine who gets appointed to playoff matches and big games etc.
 
RefereeX said:
As far as I'm aware you can only be promoted line only if you're a specialist assistant, even if you finished 1/1000 odd.

I actually get the impression (albeit with no basis whatsoever) that specialist assistants are in their own league table separate from the rest. That could be wildly wide of the mark though.
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definitely not as i know someone who was promoted on the line from 4 last January and i email chris kay to confirm as well.

you just need to meet the criteria!
 
RefereeX said:
As far as I'm aware you can only be promoted line only if you're a specialist assistant, even if you finished 1/1000 odd.

I actually get the impression (albeit with no basis whatsoever) that specialist assistants are in their own league table separate from the rest. That could be wildly wide of the mark though.
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Wildly off the mark as far as I know.

I've worked with a 4SAR who I know to be in the main merit table with other dual/SAR level 4s.

So you have to outperform all level 4s to get out onto National League

The merit table is also used to determine if a reclassified level 4 can be offered 4SAR (have to be in top 30%)
 
es1 said:
definitely not as i know someone who was promoted on the line from 4 last January and i email chris kay to confirm as well.

you just need to meet the criteria!
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Was it on the Women's pathway? Promotion/Reclassification Guidance notes clearly indicate you need to be specialist AR at L4 to progress
 
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