A&H

First Year L4 - Second Observation

HowayRef

HowayRef

New Member
Level 4 Referee
Keen to get views on this. I'll try and keep it succinct.

I'm a first year Level 4, so far have done 5 middles on the Supply League. My first observation (game 4) I got back as a 72.125 which, whilst not an earth shatteringly good mark, I was pleased with as my first observation at this level (game was a one sided league cup tie, 3-0 to away team, 2 cautions, no KMI's).

Fast forward 10 days, and I'm observed again, this time an even more 1 sided game (6-0 to the home team), 4 cautions, 1 Red for DOGSO (all supported by Observer), 4 penalty appeals, none given (again - all supported by observer). Observer states post game that because the score line was so one sided, none of these 4 pen appeals will be considered KMI's in the report (as first one was at 4-0). Report comes back in as a 70.8 and states no match changing situations.

Whilst I understand that this score is, in theory at least, above the 'standard expected' it's dragged me right down to within a couple of slots from bottom of the observer merit table (average for the pool 72.4) and I'm left thinking that I've not refereed badly but still find myself well and truly in 'relegation' territory off the back of a couple of 1 sided games with nothing in them.

I guess over the course of the season things will / should even out a little bit, but the system does feel a bit like if you're unlucky enough to be observed on very 1 sided games with not a lot going on, you're unfairly penalised. Is it simply a case of the fact that if you get observed on a game with lots of incidents / situations to manage, you're not necessarily guaranteed a good mark, but you're probably guaranteed a 'non-standard' mark (which I guess could be high or low!).

I know that referees aren't generally re-classified back to L5 after 1 season at L4, but just feel a bit flat after what I (& both my AR's) thought was a decent performance.

Thanks.
 
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Red card is an MCS.

Penalty appeals I find depends on observer as to whether they are MCS. In my view they aren't. You could have a team appealing for anything and end up with a bucket load of MCS. And the match doesn't change on a no penalty decision, again in my view.
 
the never ending cycle of observation inconsistency continues...

sounds like you have some grounds for appealing as there are clearly some MCS there and they're mentioned in the report but not rewarded.

penalty appeals as MCS depend on the situation. some are clear cut either way and are simple to give (shouldn't be rewarded over and above).

some are tougher to give and require good judgement/positioning/fitness/movement etc and should be rewarded.
 
HowayRef said:
Keen to get views on this. I'll try and keep it succinct.

I'm a first year Level 4, so far have done 5 middles on the Supply League. My first observation (game 4) I got back as a 72.125 which, whilst not an earth shatteringly good mark, I was pleased with as my first observation at this level (game was a one sided league cup tie, 3-0 to away team, 2 cautions, no KMI's).

Fast forward 10 days, and I'm observed again, this time an even more 1 sided game (6-0 to the home team), 4 cautions, 1 Red for DOGSO (all supported by Observer), 4 penalty appeals, none given (again - all supported by observer). Observer states post game that because the score line was so one sided, none of these 4 pen appeals will be considered KMI's in the report (as first one was at 4-0). Report comes back in as a 70.8 and states no match changing situations.

Whilst I understand that this score is, in theory at least, above the 'standard expected' it's dragged me right down to within a couple of slots from bottom of the observer merit table (average for the pool 72.4) and I'm left thinking that I've not refereed badly but still find myself well and truly in 'relegation' territory off the back of a couple of 1 sided games with nothing in them.

I guess over the course of the season things will / should even out a little bit, but the system does feel a bit like if you're unlucky enough to be observed on very 1 sided games with not a lot going on, you're unfairly penalised. Is it simply a case of the fact that if you get observed on a game with lots of incidents / situations to manage, you're not necessarily guaranteed a good mark, but you're probably guaranteed a 'non-standard' mark (which I guess could be high or low!).

I know that referees aren't generally re-classified back to L5 after 1 season at L4, but just feel a bit flat after what I (& both my AR's) thought was a decent performance.

Thanks.
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Unless you've had a shocker, this score is a shocker
Simply on account of you being appointed to a 'dead rubber'. As long as your Club Marks are in the top 70% and your next three observations aren't so desperately unlucky, you should be OK. Your scores will be ignored in January as you're first year L4
Any reason why your face might not have fit? Did you have any 'Major Dev 6.5's? All sounds very harsh on the 'face of it'
 
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A red card is a mandatory MSC under the observer scheme (even if it is an expected and correct decision), I’m presuming that it is referenced in section 1.2 but it should be in 1.1 as well.

Without knowing what other content there is, it’s difficult to know what to say but I would certainly suggest in games where it’s that one sided you need to consider the things you can control and do in areas that allow an observer to acknowledge and credit - teamwork, management of players and restarts, movement/positioning.

You might not always get the reward you feel you should but a number of referees relax and let the game go on around them rather than being seen to conduct the proceedings.
 
es1 said:
penalty appeals as MCS depend on the situation. some are clear cut either way and are simple to give (shouldn't be rewarded over and above).

some are tougher to give and require good judgement/positioning/fitness/movement etc and should be rewarded.
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Agreed, while an appeal is not a MCS; unless they were so silly claims, there should be reward in positioning/movement to get a credible view of them. The more difficulty to making the decision will be considered in application of law / selling the decision in match control.

"One sided matches" are difficult to mark enhancements for; that is unfortunately one of the trade-offs the FA want for incident based reports. If nothing happens, then there is nothing mark. But they also show basic technical weaknesses in your performance; so it is easier to spot poor positioning / team work / etc.

@HowayRef - where there any minor (green) comments on the report in the standard sections, as this is where you should be concentrate your self-review, not what you think the mark should have been.
 
JamesL said:
Red card is an MCS.

Penalty appeals I find depends on observer as to whether they are MCS. In my view they aren't. You could have a team appealing for anything and end up with a bucket load of MCS. And the match doesn't change on a no penalty decision, again in my view.
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Had one referee get out a notrepad, and start writing down 'MCS' at half-time; he had 5 for penalty incidents.
Don't think anybody had appealed for any of them

The ref was desperately trying to sell them to the observer as MCS in the debrief. The observer hadn't even noted any of them as they were complete non-events.
 
bester said:
Had one referee get out a notrepad, and start writing down 'MCS' at half-time; he had 5 for penalty incidents.
Don't think anybody had appealed for any of them

The ref was desperately trying to sell them to the observer as MCS in the debrief. The observer hadn't even noted any of them as they were complete non-events.
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To be fair the observer handbook does have Pen /no pen in as MCS but given players appeal for just about anything I personally struggle to justify no pen.
I think @es1 puts it better that some are and some aren't.
 
Thanks to everyone for the feedback.

To answer a couple of specifics

- There were no major development points (6.5 or less), all were 7 or above.
- There were a couple of development suggestions in the narrative of the 'standard expected', mainly around tips to improve working with assistants (eye contact & not relying on buzzer flags too much)
- I've attached the mark breakdown below

1696862410794.png

Taking on board the comments above - I think there's a point around trying to 'talk up' what you think you've done well in the game, as some observers may not have seen everything and I guess it's your opportunity to sell your performance.
 
Did the observer know it was your first year at L4? It shouldn't happen, but there are still observers that mark new referees lowly to keep their average down, knowing that they are safe from reclassification and are extremely unlikely to get promoted.
 
RustyRef said:
Did the observer know it was your first year at L4? It shouldn't happen, but there are still observers that mark new referees lowly to keep their average down, knowing that they are safe from reclassification and are extremely unlikely to get promoted.
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I might have mentioned it, yeah.

I won’t be mentioning it again though!

Live and learn 😂
 
HowayRef said:
I might have mentioned it, yeah.

I won’t be mentioning it again though!

Live and learn 😂
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Yep, do not mention it. Sadly there are observers who will do exactly as Rusty says

Another point to note is that in your first season, you will quite often be given some of the ‘easier’ games to referee. Unfortunately this quite often means a lower mark from observers as they say there isn’t as much stuff to write

All you can do is make sure you are doing the basics, and doing them well. Things like eye contact and not relying on buzzers are things you can fix fairly easily- you just need time to hone this craft. The observers may not mark you up, just don’t let them mark you down.

I always found that your pre-match is a brilliant way to sell yourself to an observer before the game has even started. If your pre-match is the same as every other referees, you maybe don’t stand out as much to the observer. Try altering your pre-match a tad, but also ensure it fits in with how you actually want the AR’s to assist you. My big one was that I didn’t break things up into thirds, quarters or halves for throw-ins. I always wanted eye to eye contact (the AR always looking at me) before any signals, unless it was right under their nose. This stood out to observers, but also gave me a larger element of control (if we’re being honest, some AR’s you get at L4 aren’t the greatest or are maybe newbies)
 
Runner-Ref said:
Yep, do not mention it. Sadly there are observers who will do exactly as Rusty says

Another point to note is that in your first season, you will quite often be given some of the ‘easier’ games to referee. Unfortunately this quite often means a lower mark from observers as they say there isn’t as much stuff to write

All you can do is make sure you are doing the basics, and doing them well. Things like eye contact and not relying on buzzers are things you can fix fairly easily- you just need time to hone this craft. The observers may not mark you up, just don’t let them mark you down.

I always found that your pre-match is a brilliant way to sell yourself to an observer before the game has even started. If your pre-match is the same as every other referees, you maybe don’t stand out as much to the observer. Try altering your pre-match a tad, but also ensure it fits in with how you actually want the AR’s to assist you. My big one was that I didn’t break things up into thirds, quarters or halves for throw-ins. I always wanted eye to eye contact (the AR always looking at me) before any signals, unless it was right under their nose. This stood out to observers, but also gave me a larger element of control (if we’re being honest, some AR’s you get at L4 aren’t the greatest or are maybe newbies)
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The pre match bit for me bodes well as I tell the AR's to lead if the decision comes within a 15-20 yard ' semi circle' which moves with them as they move along the line. If they don't know who's ball it is, to keep flag in the middle of legs (ish) and I'll lead. Outside of that, I'll lead but lots of eye contact, and generally wait and see who takes the ball and the way teams retreat etc. Not had any issues so far with that approach. I can't think of any other referee that does the same, though I may have learned it from another.
 
JamesL said:
Penalty appeals I find depends on observer as to whether they are MCS. In my view they aren't. You could have a team appealing for anything and end up with a bucket load of MCS. And the match doesn't change on a no penalty decision, again in my view.
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I agree that penalty appeals are not KMIs in and of themselves; but I think that a potential penalty decision which the referee correctly or incorrectly chooses not to give is. This is in the same way that we should be awarding assistant referees for correctly not calling offside on tight decisions, especially when they lead to goal scoring opportunities.
 
Adding in another viewpoint, chances are if the AR has signalled a foul in his credible area a free kick is almost always going to be more advantageous than advantage. Perhaps not at top levels, but at grass roots I'd say there is a far greater chance from a free kick from the wing than the fouled player getting a cross in.

I don't think the top level referees help grass roots colleagues with advantage. So many times I see a foul just outside the penalty area and central, the ball is played out wide and the referee signals advantage. That just is not an advantage, a DFK in a shooting position is way more advantageous.
 
RustyRef said:
Adding in another viewpoint, chances are if the AR has signalled a foul in his credible area a free kick is almost always going to be more advantageous than advantage. Perhaps not at top levels, but at grass roots I'd say there is a far greater chance from a free kick from the wing than the fouled player getting a cross in.

I don't think the top level referees help grass roots colleagues with advantage. So many times I see a foul just outside the penalty area and central, the ball is played out wide and the referee signals advantage. That just is not an advantage, a DFK in a shooting position is way more advantageous.
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I agree entirely. Even some way up the ladder from grassroots, it is hard to justify an advantage 40 yards away from goal and on the wing. Unless there is a clear stretch of 40 yards, and a numerical advantage in the middle for the attacking team (or some great behemoth who wins every header), you're almost always better off to give a free kick than to play an advantage outside of the attacking third, in the middle of the pitch.
 
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