Hammers Pool
- Thread starter santa sangria
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yikes...we can all see what he did there and have all done it...just don't expect that from the top level.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Normally we insist we get the right call no matter what, and of course we all want the right call. But to swing it round, we don't encourage a guess when it ends up with the wrong call, so, only fair we don't encourage a guess to get the right call, it is what it is, he was out of position and am sure will go into his next games determined to be with the 2nd last defender. As said, we will all be out of position in our games at some point, sadly for him his error is crucial and glorified.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Correct, we dont expect gk to let in a soft shot, or a player to miss an open goal, or two players of the same team to smack each other, it happens, all levels....human element. 9 times out of 10 this be called correctly, this was time 10.
spuddy1878
RefChat Addict
It seems now people are on to Salah and his diving antics the Premier League are trying to help Liverpool with offiside goals, the one at the end to Origi is plain embarrassing, i cant believe a PL official can get that decision that wrong.
Clear view, great position and ball not traveled a long distance and its still a yard and a half off, if you pause the clip after 5 seconds when player plays the pass hes even got the line of the penalty area to help him.
Clear view, great position and ball not traveled a long distance and its still a yard and a half off, if you pause the clip after 5 seconds when player plays the pass hes even got the line of the penalty area to help him.
With the goal it was so far offside you do have to wonder if Kevin Friend could have got involved. Not overrule, but he's looking across at an angle so could he have said something like "that looks a mile off Simon, are you sure". If there were any doubts in Beck's mind, and I'm sure there must have been, he'd have had the flag up in an instant I suspect.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
I thought I saw AR1 a few times (including this) watching the ball as it was kicked and being very late to look along the line.
I know I rely loads on the sound of the kick so I can look along the line when contact is made. I’m wondering @Ciley Myrus how it goes in throbbing stadia and where you look and what you hear???
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Bear in mind with ear piece in, you hear even less!
Really difficult task watching for ball kicked and who is beyond the second last defender. Concentration, excellent judgement, some ability, and a spoon of good fortune help too!
I didn't catch the game last night but by all mentions on the radio and here it wasn't the best night out for the team!!
A customer was treating me to a Michelin star eatery!!! Hard to refuse really!!
A customer was treating me to a Michelin star eatery!!! Hard to refuse really!!
I suspect at that level you have 100% faith in the two that you work with every week to handle their responsibilities. I'm not sure Friend would ever want to get involved in a straight forward offside call at the risk of confusing his assistant who is an expert in making those decisions. Friend may well have assumed the right back kept him on etc - especially seeing the AR's position, he may have assumed he was in fact in-line and so Milner was on.
Do the FA just follow me and my usually wise advice on Ref Chat??? 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47135038
Posted earlier!!!!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47125542
Is saying a ref evened things up calling him a cheat???
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47135038
Posted earlier!!!!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47125542
Is saying a ref evened things up calling him a cheat???
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Am near alone in preaching we should, at least mentally, referee without ARs, the same as we do with them. There will be one time a season where as ref, you really do know best. This was Mr Friends one. Shirked responsibilty and pushed it all onto the AR as an easy, if accepted , get out card.
I really don't think Friend could have anticipated this, I don't know his position but I suspect he was not looking left towards the penalty area, he had no way of knowing in that split second how out of position his assistant was.
Agreed. There are a lot of things you can batter KF for from this match - I thought he was incredibly slow to get his cards out, very inconsistent regarding his level of what amount of contact was acceptable, and seemed to completely ignore pushing under a high ball almost every time.
But expecting him to bail out his assistant (who made another major howler later on that half in flagging Salah offside) seems unfair. At that level, you're part of a team of experienced officials, it's not fair to expect him to double up on his teammates job when he's clearly already having a difficult time doing his own!
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
When you referee, with ARs, the bottom line fact is, as referee, you have the ultimate responsibility. Its widely accept though, granted, to use the EXCUSE, because afterall that it what it is, that, my AR flagged/never flagged so I went with it. Usually, that's seen as undestandable.
However, bear in min, each and every time that flag goes up for offside, in basic terms, its a signal from your AR that he believes someone should be penalised for being in an offside position. Its nothing more, nothing less. Now, 99 times out of 100 on auto pilot, as referee, we accept our colleagues judgement, Its vital though to be able to separate the two roles played here, one is in control, and one is, assisting the referee with that control. You can easy go through a whole season of having little dispute with ARs. So, nobody is saying, go out every game with a view to over ruling, however, its not as black and white as too many officials view things, oh right, flag is up must be offside.
And, in even rarer cases it works in reverse. If you are an alert, aware, tuned in referee, you are generally conscious of your ARs position. Friend, (not picking on him, but as he was the ref in question) is surely looking to that action area anyway. He has to simply see the AR is not ideally placed and think ahead, right, my AR wont be able to call this, so, can I help......
Far too many refs go out there with a mental block that, there is no flag, so it cant be offside. And, you can limp on by vast majority of times like this, and as stated at the start, you can always fall back on (blame) your colleague by saying, well, he never flagged so that's that
That's weak refereeing.
As someone else pointed out, we dont know what if anything was said on comms, am sure now with hindsight, Friend would have went "thats offside, am giving it, flag NOW ". That to me would have been fantastic officiating, ref doing what he should, taking absolute control, and AR, albeit slightly delayed, flagging, nobody will fault him for a late flag, nobody really knows the ref shouted on him to flag, and we avert the scoring of a goal which should not have happened.
of course this is Utopia, but, if this forum is about learning off each other, and thinking, right, how could have that been done better, that is my input here, a referee who is not afraid to turn in a huge call when needed, and sharp enough to smooth over a bumpy situation with the correct call being made as a result.
I like to think to a man we would applaud Friend had he made the call. As it is, he never. So for that he deserves appropriate share of blame for the incorrect call
Do not be fooled into thinking leave offside simply to ARs. or do if you wish, then find yourself in this situation
However, bear in min, each and every time that flag goes up for offside, in basic terms, its a signal from your AR that he believes someone should be penalised for being in an offside position. Its nothing more, nothing less. Now, 99 times out of 100 on auto pilot, as referee, we accept our colleagues judgement, Its vital though to be able to separate the two roles played here, one is in control, and one is, assisting the referee with that control. You can easy go through a whole season of having little dispute with ARs. So, nobody is saying, go out every game with a view to over ruling, however, its not as black and white as too many officials view things, oh right, flag is up must be offside.
And, in even rarer cases it works in reverse. If you are an alert, aware, tuned in referee, you are generally conscious of your ARs position. Friend, (not picking on him, but as he was the ref in question) is surely looking to that action area anyway. He has to simply see the AR is not ideally placed and think ahead, right, my AR wont be able to call this, so, can I help......
Far too many refs go out there with a mental block that, there is no flag, so it cant be offside. And, you can limp on by vast majority of times like this, and as stated at the start, you can always fall back on (blame) your colleague by saying, well, he never flagged so that's that
That's weak refereeing.
As someone else pointed out, we dont know what if anything was said on comms, am sure now with hindsight, Friend would have went "thats offside, am giving it, flag NOW ". That to me would have been fantastic officiating, ref doing what he should, taking absolute control, and AR, albeit slightly delayed, flagging, nobody will fault him for a late flag, nobody really knows the ref shouted on him to flag, and we avert the scoring of a goal which should not have happened.
of course this is Utopia, but, if this forum is about learning off each other, and thinking, right, how could have that been done better, that is my input here, a referee who is not afraid to turn in a huge call when needed, and sharp enough to smooth over a bumpy situation with the correct call being made as a result.
I like to think to a man we would applaud Friend had he made the call. As it is, he never. So for that he deserves appropriate share of blame for the incorrect call
Do not be fooled into thinking leave offside simply to ARs. or do if you wish, then find yourself in this situation
Sorry, there's no way Kevin Friend can take that off his assistant. From anywhere other than directly opposite the AR you cannot tell that the player is offside. I believe from memory that KF was right of the WH3 on the still, and just out of the picture, in order to anticipate a possible ball out of defence. From this position it is impossible to tell that the attacker is definitely offside because he's not that far off. From anywhere else they look about level.
If he guessed he would be slated if he got it wrong. The AR would also be slated because he backed up a blatantly wrong call that was his to make. If he was in a position to see the offside but was slow reacting to Liverpool losing possession and the ball being played forward to a WH attacker he would be slated if he missed a KMI due to poor positioning. His justification for being in that position would be: "I didn't trust the AR so I had to risk my positioning and missed a sending off but at least I was there in case he missed the offside!"
At this level you have to trust your assistants to get these right. Unfortunately this was right in front of him, which makes it harder to watch for both fouls and offside at the same time
If he guessed he would be slated if he got it wrong. The AR would also be slated because he backed up a blatantly wrong call that was his to make. If he was in a position to see the offside but was slow reacting to Liverpool losing possession and the ball being played forward to a WH attacker he would be slated if he missed a KMI due to poor positioning. His justification for being in that position would be: "I didn't trust the AR so I had to risk my positioning and missed a sending off but at least I was there in case he missed the offside!"
At this level you have to trust your assistants to get these right. Unfortunately this was right in front of him, which makes it harder to watch for both fouls and offside at the same time
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
AR is looking up line for ball in and out of play
As we know, its impossible to also look along the offside line at the same time
AR looks up line, ref looks along offside line. team work.
Pray tell what Friend is looking at in the situation in question? It cant be ball in and out of play, (as AR is calling that) so surely the next passage of play is going to be, wherever person with ball kicks it........Friend has to be ready for this. Otherwise, what is he looking at ??
The very top refs, and I mean, the very top, use this with comms.... imagine a free kick senario, inside the AR control path...
AR to ref (on comms, no flag as yet) "blue free kick"
Ref to AR on basis he agrees "yes give it" (flag is raised and game stops) (this also eliminates the flag going up and advantage is played)
Ref to AR on basis he is not sure "yes give it "
Ref to AR on basis ref is convinced its not a foul "no, dont give it"
You can take this, and I have heard it done, to the nth degree and use the same principle for offside...
AR to ref (without flagging) 9 is off...
Ref to AR on basis its crystal clear "yes do it "
Ref to AR on basis ref is not sure "yes do it "
Ref to AR on basis ref is convinced its not offside/ref is sure play does not need to stop "no dont flag"
I understand that is somewhat advanced for the majority who read it but the principle remains the same......referee simply must assume control
I ask again, in the incident in question, what is Friend looking at? It cant be ball in and out of play. So, it has to be, where is the ball going next....
As we know, its impossible to also look along the offside line at the same time
AR looks up line, ref looks along offside line. team work.
Pray tell what Friend is looking at in the situation in question? It cant be ball in and out of play, (as AR is calling that) so surely the next passage of play is going to be, wherever person with ball kicks it........Friend has to be ready for this. Otherwise, what is he looking at ??
The very top refs, and I mean, the very top, use this with comms.... imagine a free kick senario, inside the AR control path...
AR to ref (on comms, no flag as yet) "blue free kick"
Ref to AR on basis he agrees "yes give it" (flag is raised and game stops) (this also eliminates the flag going up and advantage is played)
Ref to AR on basis he is not sure "yes give it "
Ref to AR on basis ref is convinced its not a foul "no, dont give it"
You can take this, and I have heard it done, to the nth degree and use the same principle for offside...
AR to ref (without flagging) 9 is off...
Ref to AR on basis its crystal clear "yes do it "
Ref to AR on basis ref is not sure "yes do it "
Ref to AR on basis ref is convinced its not offside/ref is sure play does not need to stop "no dont flag"
I understand that is somewhat advanced for the majority who read it but the principle remains the same......referee simply must assume control
I ask again, in the incident in question, what is Friend looking at? It cant be ball in and out of play. So, it has to be, where is the ball going next....
one
RefChat Addict
The AR has a number of primary responsibilities and some secondary ones. Unfortunately for him in this case it was impossible to do all of those and he had to chose which to do. IMO in this circumstance any fouls was under ref's control as ref's primary responsibility so AR can ignore that as a secondary responsibility. Ball in/out and offside are however primary ones for AR. Generally speaking offside is more important than ball in/out and in hindsight this case shows why. The referee here has a chance of getting the ball in/out (and more so using comes) but not offside, especially if its a close one.
Covering offside here means you possibly miss a close ball going out but I'd rather take my chances on that one rather a chance of missing an offside. So as AR i'd be looking at the offside line and if possible at play in my peripheral vision.
More importantly even if I chose to look at ball/play, it has to be glances back and forth. Having look at replays, AR looked at play behind him continuously for at least 5 seconds (quite likely more) without looking at offside line and that for me is an error.
Covering offside here means you possibly miss a close ball going out but I'd rather take my chances on that one rather a chance of missing an offside. So as AR i'd be looking at the offside line and if possible at play in my peripheral vision.
More importantly even if I chose to look at ball/play, it has to be glances back and forth. Having look at replays, AR looked at play behind him continuously for at least 5 seconds (quite likely more) without looking at offside line and that for me is an error.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
^^^^ and with the AR looking at ball in and out of play, good team work would mean the referee takes the next passage in play !!!! ^^^^
And ball in and out of play is surely the most important issue in a game full stop? if the balls out, all bets are off, plus ball in and out of play is factual, its either, in, or, its out !!
Offside is, in the interpretation of the referee/////AR....... so, one is an opinion and one is factual. making, the factual one more important !!!
And ball in and out of play is surely the most important issue in a game full stop? if the balls out, all bets are off, plus ball in and out of play is factual, its either, in, or, its out !!
Offside is, in the interpretation of the referee/////AR....... so, one is an opinion and one is factual. making, the factual one more important !!!
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