Level 5-4 First Observation

[GraemeS]

Have just been sent my first observation report for 5-4 this season. Overall score 72.4 on a very very quiet zero caution one-sided game, which I think is OK?

In terms of individual sections, he's marked me 6.5 in 2 areas, which I have no problem with, think the comments are fair and will take on board. But there are a couple of comments in sections marked as 7 that I don't agree with - one point in section 1.2 where he thought I wanted to talk to a player but let myself be rushed (in reality, I just wanted to warn him against standing over the ball at FK's, which only needed a few words and which he took on board) and one "missed caution" for a FT in section 2.2, which is a challenge I saw clearly and just don't think needed a card. EDIT: He also has the player number wrong on this one, which I think might be why he wants a card as the player he's named was on a final PI warning, but the actual player who did the challenge was a fresh sub.

Is there any point/benefit trying to challenge those comments, or given it was such a quiet game, do I just take the 72.4 and count myself lucky he found enough in that game to give that score?

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Also, as a side note (since it didn't make it into the report), he did criticise me post-match for standing the same side as my NAR on some corners and FK's. In previous 7-6 and 6-5 promotions, I've usually been told to mix up my position on these set pieces to give yourself a different angle each time - is that CAR-specific advice and with NAR's I should just routinely get to the opposite side, or is this just observer preference that I need to accept will vary?

 

[es1]

i don't think you can challenge them as they're not things that are wrong in law, just things that are wrong with the observer's interpretation of the events (which you obviously can't prove right or wrong).

with NAR, advice will be to always stand towards the far corner of the box (where the far side of the D meets the penalty area). mix it up on your own for sure, and by all means go slightly deeper / more central if required with NAR, but stay far side

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

As an observer at Levels 3/4/5/6/7 I look for the referee to avoid being in the same start position at corner kicks (as players can use that to their advantage) and for each kick to adopt a viewing location and angle which allows sight of the goalkeeper, the landing zone, and the pushing and pulling in the goal area. If on occasions (e.g. when corners are being played to the near post) that includes a move to the right of the arc (same side as NAR, but a different viewing angle) that's not a problem . . . bur as you say observers may express preferences, and should allow you to explain your approach.

 

[Quarryref]

with NAR, advice will be to always stand towards the far corner of the box (where the far side of the D meets the penalty area). mix it up on your own for sure, and by all means go slightly deeper / more central if required with NAR, but stay far side

This is one I also fell foul of moving from CAR to NAR - the difference is logical when you think about it. Only reason I would go NAR side is to avoid staring into a low sun, which might happen once or twice a season

 

[higdawgy]

You also need to adjust your positioning based on what the teams are doing.
Where are they all making their runs, where are the kicks going, are they crowding the keeper?

 

[JamesL]

You can only appeal an observation where the mark given does not reflect the text written or it is wrong in law.
These are neither, and you only really want to appeal if you stand a good chance of winning. Rightly or wrongly, you probably also don't want to be the guy that appeals frequently, so choose when to appeal very carefully.

To have two 6.5s and have 72.4 is still good going.

I'd be happy with that. Take the development into the next game.

Re: corners you will get varying advice. The coaching is generally somewhere in the zones opposite the NAR but you can still vary where that is and don't stand still.

 

[GraemeS]

Thanks for the advice all, will accept happily.

The score stayed high thanks mainly to 8's in all 3 Match Control areas (hilarious given I'm not actually a huge believer in Match Control as a concept referees can control), plus an 8 in whichever area it is that relates to advantage. 6.5's for fitness and positioning - fitness is definitely fair, positioning I might have been a bit less happy with if not for him making the point that I just need to make the moves I'm doing but anticipate and do it a second or two earlier so that I'm able to move more consistently rather than only either standing or sprinting.

Corners and corner-adjacent FK's were very odd in this game. First one he highlighted was a FK directly under the Senior AR's nose about 20 yards out 8 minutes in - I didn't feel the wall ended up in a good position for the AR to monitor and also am always wary of delaying the game so I can make 22 players watch me jog 40m when staying the same side and only going 15m gets things going quicker, so stayed over that side. Then had a corner up the other end and noticed the Junior AR over the other side on his 2nd ever line was taking a position 10 yards out despite there being players on the line, so deliberately went over that side for the second and 3rd corner that end thinking I might need to nudge him down.

As others have suggested, possibly I did mix it up on some other corners as well, due to being used to CAR positioning, so will try and be more rigid about getting over the "correct" side in future.

 

[MattTheRef]

Thanks for the advice all, will accept happily.

The score stayed high thanks mainly to 8's in all 3 Match Control areas (hilarious given I'm not actually a huge believer in Match Control as a concept referees can control), plus an 8 in whichever area it is that relates to advantage. 6.5's for fitness and positioning - fitness is definitely fair, positioning I might have been a bit less happy with if not for him making the point that I just need to make the moves I'm doing but anticipate and do it a second or two earlier so that I'm able to move more consistently rather than only either standing or sprinting.

Corners and corner-adjacent FK's were very odd in this game. First one he highlighted was a FK directly under the Senior AR's nose about 20 yards out 8 minutes in - I didn't feel the wall ended up in a good position for the AR to monitor and also am always wary of delaying the game so I can make 22 players watch me jog 40m when staying the same side and only going 15m gets things going quicker, so stayed over that side. Then had a corner up the other end and noticed the Junior AR over the other side on his 2nd ever line was taking a position 10 yards out despite there being players on the line, so deliberately went over that side for the second and 3rd corner that end thinking I might need to nudge him down.

As others have suggested, possibly I did mix it up on some other corners as well, due to being used to CAR positioning, so will try and be more rigid about getting over the "correct" side in future.

I always find moving whilst the ball is played into the box satisfies observers for varying positioning. Dependant on how the players are formed I then go wider/narrower/straighter etc... Occasionally making a big arc towards the front post if every player is in and around the 6 yard box

 

[Big Cat]

Positioning advice for CKs is mostly a load of rubbish! There's an obvious best starting position and although that remains the best place to stay more often than not, we must needlessly move more often than not if we don't want a development point. Generally speaking

 

[RustyRef]

Remember that for a mark of 7 they don't need to enter any text, so in effect that text is pretty much irrelevant. Was there any kind of debrief, as he should have confirmed the numbers of any cautions or missed cautioned in that?

For corners and attacking free kicks, with neutral assistants you would typically start towards the edge of the D furthest away from them. But that isn't set in stone, and I would always support referees picking different starting positions as opposed to standing in the same place every time, as long as they then move if the ball is in the air if they need to. I'd also give bonus credit if they let their position be affected by what has happened so far in the game. Using a couple of examples ...

One team were regularly taking short corners on the AR's side. If that happens I'm not going to be best impressed if the referee stays where he is towards the far side of the area and rather would expect him to move along the edge of the area to get closer. But if the referee is really switched on he will recognise it is going to be played short and will actually start on that side, again moving while the ball is in the air if necessary.

Similarly, a team's corners from the AR's keep landing close to the near post. I'd expect the referee to react to this as if that happens the traditional far side of the area position leaves too many players to look through. Moving as the ball comes in is a minimum, but if it keeps happening why not start on that side in the first place? Also, something my L3 coach taught me, look at which foot the corner taker is likely to use, Statistically inswinging corners land towards the near post whereas outswingers go deeper. That ties in with the coaching manual as for an inswinger you usually want to get a big player across the front post for a flick on, for outswingers you typically get the centre backs attacking from deep towards the far post. So the clues are there to help you with positioning.

 

[higdawgy]

And always have a look behind you to see if you are going to get in the way of a centre half making a run into the box

 

[GraemeS]

Remember that for a mark of 7 they don't need to enter any text, so in effect that text is pretty much irrelevant. Was there any kind of debrief, as he should have confirmed the numbers of any cautions or missed cautioned in that?

We did have a debrief - there was one PI caution I knew I'd missed because I didn't identify who committed the foul until it was too late. But I guess as I pre-emptively told him I knew I'd missed it, that didn't even get mentioned on the report. Another PI caution which....sure. I didn't particularly notice the player in question doing anything more than what you'd expect a defender to do, but he had a list of timed examples so I accept that.

The third one he claims I missed is the one that grates slightly, as it's very much an opinion-based foul that he thinks was caution-worthy and I think I saw pretty clearly and was happy to just give the foul. I said as much in the debrief but it still got onto the report - though as you say, under a 7 mark so I guess not affecting things too much.

 

[RustyRef]

We did have a debrief - there was one PI caution I knew I'd missed because I didn't identify who committed the foul until it was too late. But I guess as I pre-emptively told him I knew I'd missed it, that didn't even get mentioned on the report. Another PI caution which....sure. I didn't particularly notice the player in question doing anything more than what you'd expect a defender to do, but he had a list of timed examples so I accept that.

The third one he claims I missed is the one that grates slightly, as it's very much an opinion-based foul that he thinks was caution-worthy and I think I saw pretty clearly and was happy to just give the foul. I said as much in the debrief but it still got onto the report - though as you say, under a 7 mark so I guess not affecting things too much.

Many observers, myself included, write down the time of every foul and who committed it. So if someone is making too many fouls it tends to scream out at us from the page.

Opinions between the referee and observer around what should be a caution are always likely to differ. You almost always both have a totally different angle, and until you get to a level where decisions are checked on DVD if he thinks you missed a caution you missed a caution. You can offer your view on it in the debrief, but if it goes into the report there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.