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Liverpool v City - Klopp sending off

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lincs22

lincs22

Supply League Observer
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So, at grassroots level, he would charged with an aggravated breach for the verbal assault. The guidelines are 6 to 12 matches.

Roy Keene, saying he is showing passion for his team, is as helpful as a fart in a spacesuit..... Grassroots referees are quitting every week after they get at weekends. And given the the Merseyside Youth Football League cancelled all their matches this weekend for abuse towards referees.

What do we think the ban we will get should be?

I will start - 6 weeks, so effectively he can until after the World Cup off. And 3 weeks of being banned from all football places (including the training ground). If the FA want to help grassroots football, here is a prefect example.
 
The Referee Store
lincs22 said:
Keene, saying he is showing passion for his team, is as helpful as a fart in a spacesuit..... Grassroots referees are quitting every week after they get at weekends. And given the the Merseyside Youth Football League cancelled all their matches this weekend for abuse towards referees.
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This was incredibly unhelpful, BBC did similar as well, not calling it out for what it is.

No way he gets 6 games. 3 will be max
 
Very frustrating - Savage opened up on 606 basically saying it was the referee's fault - as if no PL manager can be expected to have any shred of self control. Reasons and excuses are not the same thing.

Guardiola's behaviour around the VAR review was appalling as well.

Thoroughly depressing shadow for me over what was otherwise a great game.
 
lincs22 said:
So, at grassroots level, he would charged with an aggravated breach for the verbal assault. The guidelines are 6 to 12 matches.
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Not unless you know something I don't regarding what he said - aggravated breaches are where discriminatory language is used.
 
ARF said:
Not unless you know something I don't regarding what he said - aggravated breaches are where discriminatory language is used.
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Whatever he said, the. Ref stops the game and RC him. The red must have heard though the mic’s for it to be that quick and I bet there was some naughty words used.
 
lincs22 said:
Whatever he said, the. Ref stops the game and RC him. The red must have heard though the mic’s for it to be that quick and I bet there was some naughty words used.
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Exactly - but as ARF points out, naughty words aren't the same as discriminatory language against a protected class. It will go through as a "standard" OFFINABUS and get 3 games. And discussing what ban he "should" get sounds more like fan talk than referee talk.

If we do want to discuss the game as referees, I think AT had a pretty poor game. He tried to be tough at the start and then loosened up almost immediately, which led to some very inconsistent decisions across the first 20 minutes. Consistently failed to give the "fall over and grab the opponents shirt" foul. Highlighted by VAR having to bail him out on the disallowed City goal and the foul that wasn't given that led to Klopp losing it, but it also happened a good few other times - he just seemed to decide he wasn't giving that foul today.

There was also an incident around 15 minutes in that had me incensed - Foden goes down on City's left, stays down, City benches are screaming for the ball to be put out. Liverpool don't, but their attack breaks down and the ball breaks back towards LFC goal (note City don't put the ball out either!) And Foden is suddenly up and sprinting, gets a good few touches that play a part in City getting a shot on target.

I'm just about OK to accept that some gamesmanship is part of the sport, but I think faking injuries to try and stop a counter attack is appalling behaviour. Liverpool didn't put the ball out presumably in part because their analysts had told them that City do this - but it's only going to be so long before we have a "boy who cries wolf" situation. Had he actually needed urgent attention, he wouldn't have got it, and that's a serious problem caused by teams faking injuries and gaining reputations for doing so. Authorities need to sort this out before someone gets seriously hurt - either by punishing faking, or taking that medical decision out of the hands of untrained referees and players.
 
GraemeS said:
Exactly - but as ARF points out, naughty words aren't the same as discriminatory language against a protected class. It will go through as a "standard" OFFINABUS and get 3 games. And discussing what ban he "should" get sounds more like fan talk than referee talk.

If we do want to discuss the game as referees, I think AT had a pretty poor game. He tried to be tough at the start and then loosened up almost immediately, which led to some very inconsistent decisions across the first 20 minutes. Consistently failed to give the "fall over and grab the opponents shirt" foul. Highlighted by VAR having to bail him out on the disallowed City goal and the foul that wasn't given that led to Klopp losing it, but it also happened a good few other times - he just seemed to decide he wasn't giving that foul today.

There was also an incident around 15 minutes in that had me incensed - Foden goes down on City's left, stays down, City benches are screaming for the ball to be put out. Liverpool don't, but their attack breaks down and the ball breaks back towards LFC goal (note City don't put the ball out either!) And Foden is suddenly up and sprinting, gets a good few touches that play a part in City getting a shot on target.

I'm just about OK to accept that some gamesmanship is part of the sport, but I think faking injuries to try and stop a counter attack is appalling behaviour. Liverpool didn't put the ball out presumably in part because their analysts had told them that City do this - but it's only going to be so long before we have a "boy who cries wolf" situation. Had he actually needed urgent attention, he wouldn't have got it, and that's a serious problem caused by teams faking injuries and gaining reputations for doing so. Authorities need to sort this out before someone gets seriously hurt - either by punishing faking, or taking that medical decision out of the hands of untrained referees and players.
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And Mike Dean comes out saying he had a fantastic game …

www.dailymail.co.uk

MIKE DEAN: Anthony Taylor and his team can hold their heads high

MIKE DEAN: He didn't hinder it in any way. He let the game flow by waving away soft fouls and penalising the ones that clearly overstepped the mark.
www.dailymail.co.uk
 
Inconsistent or not, that overrule for the Foden goal was not in keeping with the game. In isolation I believe that it was probably a foul but whenever I’ve been an AR, referees in the pre match always say to me give fouls based on how they are refereeing the game.

AT was letting these sorts of things go throughout the match and then when the goal happens, it gets analysed within an inch of its life and AT creates his own inconsistency under pressure of VAR. VAR should be basing their recommended reviews on the tolerance level of the referee
 
A referee is making poor decisions all game, so VAR should back up those poor decisions? That's a weak argument and you know it.

Some things just ARE fouls, and a referee failing to give those needs to be corrected when it leads to a goal - the main fault here is AT failing to take the lesson on board and continuing to miss easy fouls.
 
GraemeS said:
A referee is making poor decisions all game, so VAR should back up those poor decisions? That's a weak argument and you know it.

Some things just ARE fouls, and a referee failing to give those needs to be corrected when it leads to a goal - the main fault here is AT failing to take the lesson on board and continuing to miss easy fouls.
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Liverpool players didn’t argue the Fabinho foul at all, the only argument was that on Allison. Fouls are subjective and throughout the game AT and his AR’s (one which caused the Klopp incident) were consistently allowing the soft ones so quite clearly this was something they’d discussed prior to KO and Pep confirmed AT had said exactly the same to both managers before the game, so why become involved in one isolated incident? I’m not suggesting it wasn’t a foul, but if we/players/managers want consistency then this shouldn’t have been reviewed based on how AT was allowing the game to progress
 
GraemeS said:
It will go through as a "standard" OFFINABUS and get 3 games.
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I should also point out that a standard OFFINABUS sending off for a player is two matches, but that doesn't apply to sendings off for team officials. At Step 4 and above The FA designate misconduct charges as being either "standard" or "non-standard". If the former, the miscreant will be offered a sanction, which would be increased if they chose to deny the charge and it was found proven. If the latter, it is down to the discretion of the disciplinary commission (as all misconduct charges are at Step 5 and below).
 
QuaverRef said:
Liverpool players didn’t argue the Fabinho foul at all, the only argument was that on Allison. Fouls are subjective and throughout the game AT and his AR’s (one which caused the Klopp incident) were consistently allowing the soft ones so quite clearly this was something they’d discussed prior to KO and Pep confirmed AT had said exactly the same to both managers before the game, so why become involved in one isolated incident? I’m not suggesting it wasn’t a foul, but if we/players/managers want consistency then this shouldn’t have been reviewed based on how AT was allowing the game to progress
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A referee can turn up and blow his whistle 4 times in a match, at the start and end of each half. That's consistent within the match, everything goes.

It's also awful refereeing, likely to be wildly inconsistent with what the teams see in previous weeks and absolutely unacceptable. A referee isn't entitled to just decide he's not enforcing certain laws on a week-by-week basis - if he's not giving "fall over and grab the opponents shirt" fouls for a game, that's either a failing in judgement because he's not seeing that as fouls, or an unacceptable adjustment to the LOTG. AT can say "I'll try and let the game flow", he cannot say "shirt grabbing is fine today guys".

Also, no idea how you know what the players were and weren't arguing. Allison and Van Dijk did seem to be mainly gesturing at the foul on the keeper, but Fabinho and Milner were also very involved in that chat and could easily have been making the point that he missed a second foul earlier in the move as well.
 
I've no doubt AT will be given loads of more big games because the main story is all about how great the game was and how the PL is the best in the world.... usual guff.

Looking back though - constant pulling players down without sanction, two fouls not given by on-field ref in VAR disallowed goal, red card to a manager who completely overreacted to the poor officiating, away manager riling up fans, coins been thrown, disgusting songs and graffiti. While the masses were thoroughly entertained, that's a huge amount of anger from everyone in the ground.
 
I say this as a neutral, and someone who has been a fan of AT for years, but I can think of 4 big games he’s referred this season and I think he’s been poor in them all. His style has changed completely, and I’d be surprised if he refs like this for UEFA or at the WC.

NLD, Chelsea-Spurs, Merseyside Derby and this. If he’s referees anymore that I’m missing because he reffed well fair enough but he’s 0/4 this year.

However Dean has praised him, suggesting perhaps the PL is looking for something different than what we are
 
Macca said:
I've no doubt AT will be given loads of more big games because the main story is all about how great the game was and how the PL is the best in the world.... usual guff.

Looking back though - constant pulling players down without sanction, two fouls not given by on-field ref in VAR disallowed goal, red card to a manager who completely overreacted to the poor officiating, away manager riling up fans, coins been thrown, disgusting songs and graffiti. While the masses were thoroughly entertained, that's a huge amount of anger from everyone in the ground.
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Sounds like exactly what the game wants. ShowBizz, circus, spectacle type stuff with zillions of viewers and controversy 247/365
Sets the precedent for 99% of the ice berg which doesn't have the sanctuary of being on TV

On that basis only, the Refereeing Team contributed to what the game wants and therefore did a good job
Although not at all surprised that the restart was wrong after Klopp's dismissal
Just another page I can tear out the dreadful book in the name of 'spirit of the game' 🙄
 
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On a more mundane note, did anyone see the restart of play?
Unusual (by EPL standards) that he stopped play to flick a manager so it would be interesting to know what happened next.
 
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