Political Logos
- Thread starter Sheffields Finest
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I don't agree with this comparison. You are comparing something which people dislike (a moral question) with something that is way past morality and into criminality on mass scale. While I don't agree with the way some of these historical monuments have been take down, for me, anything that represents, dignifies or glorifies slavery must be destroyed (or at least removed and hidden) by authorities.
A better comparison for me would be removal of swastikas or statues of genocide dictators. It is not about removing history, it is about ensuring what has happened and those who represent it are not glorified.
The Bristol statue was put there for his charity work in the city not because he was involved in the slave trade! Ironically it was legal at the time and the Uk government paid for them to stop. A bill that was finally settled only in 2015. What next, take down half the large buildings in Liverpool docks as many have references to the trade and the glorification at the time. Main point being football isn’t this, it’s not it’s fight, it’s supposed to be non political. That’s for other platforms...
Seriously, have you not heard of books and museums? That's how we learn history, looking at a giant bronze statue of a man does nothing to tell me about his controversial part in the slave trade. It doesn't frame or allow for the debate, it simply glorifies him. And it turns out, that glorifying him for his charitable contributions is a great way of glossing over the fact that the main reason he had the money to be a philanthropist is because he bought and sold people...
Ironic that you mention Liverpool as well - that happens to be the home of the International Slavery Museum. They don't shy away from the part that the slave trade played in the history of the city, and they don't try and pretend that we should be anything but appalled by it. And most relevantly to the discussion we're having here, they show how to teach that side of history without having to resort to 10-foot tall tributes to the terrible people involved.
RefJef
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Re the educational value of statues.
i have been a maths teacher for over 20 years. I think most of my students have learnt something as they have passed through my classroom. I managed to do all of this without there being a statue of a slide rule in my home town.*
the statue should not have been there still. The people of Bristol** have been trying to get it removed for years, but obstacles kept getting put in their way. So they took the matter into their own hands. Their are a number of other connections to Edward Colston in Bristol - again, change has been happening: buildings being renamed etc. A big music venue - Colston Hall - has been re-branding itself over the last few years, last week’s events just accelerated that process with the name coming off the side of the building late last week, some months earlier than planned, but it was planned to happen. Bristolians have been wanting this - a re-evaluation of Colston - for some time.
Ironically, after being standing for more than 100 years, the only educational input the Colston statue has had was when it was pulled down and dumped in the harbour.
*with apologies to Nish Kumar who’se joke I have pinched and paraphrased.
**I am not a Bristolian, but I don’t live far from the city, and am aware of the local sentimen.
i have been a maths teacher for over 20 years. I think most of my students have learnt something as they have passed through my classroom. I managed to do all of this without there being a statue of a slide rule in my home town.*
the statue should not have been there still. The people of Bristol** have been trying to get it removed for years, but obstacles kept getting put in their way. So they took the matter into their own hands. Their are a number of other connections to Edward Colston in Bristol - again, change has been happening: buildings being renamed etc. A big music venue - Colston Hall - has been re-branding itself over the last few years, last week’s events just accelerated that process with the name coming off the side of the building late last week, some months earlier than planned, but it was planned to happen. Bristolians have been wanting this - a re-evaluation of Colston - for some time.
Ironically, after being standing for more than 100 years, the only educational input the Colston statue has had was when it was pulled down and dumped in the harbour.
*with apologies to Nish Kumar who’se joke I have pinched and paraphrased.
**I am not a Bristolian, but I don’t live far from the city, and am aware of the local sentimen.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
Still waiting for some examples of "systemic racism" here in the UK.
Your last paragraph does more to contradict it's puported existence ....
Interesting how the Premier League found it unacceptable for players to wear poppies on their shirts as I recall but a "political" slogan is okay or maybe I imagined that one ...
.....
www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk
That is 1 example of systematic racism.
You are more likely to be stopped and searched by police if you are of BAME heritage.
Stop and search
Between April 2021 and March 2022, there were 27.2 stop and searches for every 1,000 black people, compared with 5.6 for every 1,000 white people in England and Wales.
That is 1 example of systematic racism.
As a player or referee, I'm guessing I've participated in over 700 football matches. Not once in all that time over 25 years have I encountered an issue or allegation relating to race. Even at Power League with its significant potential for a fight each week, again no issue with race
Same at work. It's difficult therefore to accept that prejudice is everywhere in the UK. Maybe I'm wearing blinkers
Inequality is complex however and will take generations to bridge
Same at work. It's difficult therefore to accept that prejudice is everywhere in the UK. Maybe I'm wearing blinkers
Inequality is complex however and will take generations to bridge
Kes
I'll Decide ...
.....
You are more likely to be stopped and searched by police if you are of BAME heritage.
Stop and search
Between April 2021 and March 2022, there were 27.2 stop and searches for every 1,000 black people, compared with 5.6 for every 1,000 white people in England and Wales.
That is 1 example of systematic racism.
Someone else already tried that one.
["almost half of all stop and searches took place in the Metropolitan Police force area in London" ]
Again, if you think it shows racism then that's up to you.
See post #29 ...
James, that argument just doesn't stand up.....
You are more likely to be stopped and searched by police if you are of BAME heritage.
Stop and search
Between April 2021 and March 2022, there were 27.2 stop and searches for every 1,000 black people, compared with 5.6 for every 1,000 white people in England and Wales.
That is 1 example of systematic racism.
1 race issue in 500+ games in an inner city area. I had more issues with ginger persecution than any BAME.
As the OP though, I cannot believe than the EPL has saddled itself to this particular horse.
As the OP though, I cannot believe than the EPL has saddled itself to this particular horse.
Let's accept this argument of "Racism is no longer a problem in football" for a moment.
Well great. Wonderful news. Maybe it would be a good thing to do to connect this apparently successful campaign in football with a larger campaign that is looking to do similar in more general society and try to extend that excellent, all-encompassing success outwards even further. It would seem strange to me for anyone to have a problem with that idea?
Well great. Wonderful news. Maybe it would be a good thing to do to connect this apparently successful campaign in football with a larger campaign that is looking to do similar in more general society and try to extend that excellent, all-encompassing success outwards even further. It would seem strange to me for anyone to have a problem with that idea?
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Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
i made that point, same as you, either am missing it, its missed me, or its happened and i was unaware, but, other than crowd insults early 90s, never seen or heard anything.
Rather than get into a debate about it, I am going to leave it at this.
I can see that from an anti racist point of view you don't see these fact and figures as evidence, because you don't hold any racial prejudice or biases. Therefore in you perfect worlds you don't see how anyone can be disadvantaged due to the colour of their skin.
The fact is, that the stats say that there is a problem. The fact it is widely reported and talked about suggests it is a very real problem despite you having such faith in our legal system that means it possibly cannot be the case.
Couple of general points. BAME make up 3% of the population yet in 2017 accounted for 12% of the prison population. That's not the stat that has the answers.. That's the stat that raises the questions. Are you more likely to be a criminal because of your skin colour?if so, why is that? And if not then why have we such a disproportionate amount of BAME men and women incarcerated?
Bringing it back to football Premier league has around a third BAME players, so why are they so under represented in management and coaching.
More specifically, refereeing, why are BAME so under represented in the refereeing structure. In 8 years I have only worked with 2 referees of BAME heritage. And that was in and around North West where I would expect to have seen more BAME colleagues than perhaps in Cornwall due to demographics.
So we aren't talking about racism in a sense of direct name calling, which thankfully is significantly less than in times gone by, but we do need to address why BAME groups are significantly disadvantaged in many walks of life including employment, poverty, criminal justice etc. Which is more what the BLM movement is about. Its not about day to day experiences and interactions, and name calling it's about how they are able to get on in life and have the same opportunities that exist in this country for those of white British heritage.
I am not going to continue in this debate. If you honestly feel there is no problem, then thats fine, I doubt that I will ever change your views/opinions, but there is enough in the news, research online etc. that demonstrates that those of BAME are not always treated fairly in our society and this is why we are now seeing the response we are.
I can see that from an anti racist point of view you don't see these fact and figures as evidence, because you don't hold any racial prejudice or biases. Therefore in you perfect worlds you don't see how anyone can be disadvantaged due to the colour of their skin.
The fact is, that the stats say that there is a problem. The fact it is widely reported and talked about suggests it is a very real problem despite you having such faith in our legal system that means it possibly cannot be the case.
Couple of general points. BAME make up 3% of the population yet in 2017 accounted for 12% of the prison population. That's not the stat that has the answers.. That's the stat that raises the questions. Are you more likely to be a criminal because of your skin colour?if so, why is that? And if not then why have we such a disproportionate amount of BAME men and women incarcerated?
Bringing it back to football Premier league has around a third BAME players, so why are they so under represented in management and coaching.
More specifically, refereeing, why are BAME so under represented in the refereeing structure. In 8 years I have only worked with 2 referees of BAME heritage. And that was in and around North West where I would expect to have seen more BAME colleagues than perhaps in Cornwall due to demographics.
So we aren't talking about racism in a sense of direct name calling, which thankfully is significantly less than in times gone by, but we do need to address why BAME groups are significantly disadvantaged in many walks of life including employment, poverty, criminal justice etc. Which is more what the BLM movement is about. Its not about day to day experiences and interactions, and name calling it's about how they are able to get on in life and have the same opportunities that exist in this country for those of white British heritage.
I am not going to continue in this debate. If you honestly feel there is no problem, then thats fine, I doubt that I will ever change your views/opinions, but there is enough in the news, research online etc. that demonstrates that those of BAME are not always treated fairly in our society and this is why we are now seeing the response we are.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
Moot point.
UK society isn't systemically racist.
The dumb actions and opinions of a dying breed (racists/bigots) doesn't lend credibility to thousands of woke individuals causing havoc and carrying placards claiming the UK is. Look at the facts. The UK leans the opposite way in everything it does, and so do the majority of it's population.
Kes
I'll Decide ...
Vice versa and touche.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
There’s a lot of this that’s borderline unpleadant reading but well done for keeping it civil.
I note that a couple of things, like privilege, racist statements by the current PM (vs systematic racism) and football’s global problems with racism, haven’t been mentioned.
My take is, with all due respect: I think you and I should be big enough to suck it up. We are talking centuries, decades of behaviour, disadvantage and you know, kids still being abused for the colour of their skin.
A few statues, pah. Some positive discrimmination, pah. Bending the shirt slogan rules, pah. This stuff is trivial, it’s clutching at straws. I really think you and I have a duty to not be so petty and give our unconditional support.
I note that a couple of things, like privilege, racist statements by the current PM (vs systematic racism) and football’s global problems with racism, haven’t been mentioned.
My take is, with all due respect: I think you and I should be big enough to suck it up. We are talking centuries, decades of behaviour, disadvantage and you know, kids still being abused for the colour of their skin.
A few statues, pah. Some positive discrimmination, pah. Bending the shirt slogan rules, pah. This stuff is trivial, it’s clutching at straws. I really think you and I have a duty to not be so petty and give our unconditional support.
The raw stats (quoted) are nothing more than just that. No context, no analysis etc.
We're agreed on one thing... undeniable inequality. But we'd have to be sociologists to pick at the complex reasons for that, with 'racism' a diminishing factor in the UK. Like I said earlier, this will take many decades to redress even if prejudice is already confined to a small minority
America... a different kettle of fish (in some States)
Peter Grove
RefChat Addict
You're really asking that? In the current context?
The fire is the systematic and endemic bias against people simply because of the colour of their skin, especially in the way it has been seen publicly and shockingly in recent weeks and months.
The fire is George Floyd, the fire is Breonna Taylor, the fire is Ahmaud Arbery, the fire is Philando Castile, the fire is Eric Garner, the fire is Trayvon Martin - I could go on and on and on.
Here's another similar analogy to the one I gave about "all houses matter", in picture form:
Not really with you again with the cartoon...
The goings on in the US are not mirrored over here, although you'd think that was the case if you watched the BBC all day
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