A&H

Junior/Youth U18 cup final

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Don't you find that the "f*ck off" given in frustration as the whistle goes, tends to be louder and more aggressive then the one that might be given after a brief delay and/or chat about it?

Certainly in my experience the "frustrated" shouts that occur immediately the whistle goes tend to be much louder and vehment then something that takes place almost at conversational level........so are we telling players that its actually ok to shout foul language in an agressive manner but say the same thing 10 seconds later at a normal talking volume and we'll send them off?
i think the distinction there is that for a lot of people, the words "f**k off" are used as a reaction by some of the less eloquent chaps on the pitch.
if you were to be a fly on the wall in a local pub there would be plenty of fk offs used at the beginning of many sentences, and the context there would not be to offend, but to disagree. i think we'd all be a little surprised if a player turned round and exclaimed "au contraire, referee" :)
if theres a pause, time for the fella to think about what he wants to say, and STILL comes out with profanities then surely thats a factor ?
 
The Referee Store
Completely agree, the decision yesterday to send him was completely mine. i completely get where you're coming from @Padfoot .

And that's what done it for me yesterday Richard. Myself and the player had a brief conversation, he's paused and then come out with that. That is no longer in the realms of frustration, but more in his ability to control his opinions.
 
I should expect to be spoken to like that and it's okay?

No chance! By telling me to f**k off, this is as clear reason to dismiss for S6 as any. I'm a little disappointed in your response here Bryan if I'm honest with you. Out of everyone on here, I expected both yourself and Mr Foot to agree with the action taken. Red. Do not pass go blah blah

There's so much transparency between people on this forum. For one person it's okay, for the next it's not? I just don't get it. There's no continuity at all.
still on the phone here BUT I fully agree with @Padfoot that the referee should not be asking what you want. He should be asking what happened and then making his own judgement.

Don't be disappointed, it will spoil your tea.

"Transparency between people on this forum ..." Sorry I don't understand that. Same goes for continuity but I think you mean consistency there. What do you expect, we're not robots
 
I think you definitely need to repost that when you have a keyboard, Brian, because I'm concerned that you think it's fine for somebody to, with forethought, tell the AR to 'f*** off lino'. And given your apparent concern at DB's thoughts that he shouldn't be spoken to like that, it's what you've implied in your post.
No I'm good thanks. Still think it was the wrong call. If someone used the same expression to the OP at work he wouldn't bat an eyelid.
 
I see what you mean Brian but still think I'd have no problem for a red card than a lemon one
 
A quite and directed '**** off' is often much more venomous than an immediate scream across the pitch.

The players decided he is going to say that and has had enough time to think better of it, and hasn't.

I'd happily see a yellow OR a red here.

For an assessor to say 'you made the wrong decision' is incredibly poor as they should know better than anybody, if you found the tone and way it was said offensive insulting or abusive, a red was the right decision.

Well done @DB
 
A quite and directed '**** off' is often much more venomous than an immediate scream across the pitch.

The players decided he is going to say that and has had enough time to think better of it, and hasn't.

I'd happily see a yellow OR a red here.

For an assessor to say 'you made the wrong decision' is incredibly poor as they should know better than anybody, if you found the tone and way it was said offensive insulting or abusive, a red was the right decision.

Well done @DB
Do you mean quiet not quite?

For an assessor to offer an opinion on anything that you don't agree with seems to be incredibly poor in your world, yet you agree that you'd happily see a yellow or red here. Make your mind up, either what I said or what the OP told the referee to do is the right answer. So swing a leg over the fence and jump down one side will you
 
And therein lies the double standards that we referees create for ourselves, that eventually end up causing us problems.

Accept 'f#ck off' in one moment, and then dismiss for it in the next. Unfortunately the average player, when between the white lines, doesn't possess the intelligence to grasp the subtle differences between the two.

Not saying that you were wrong, or right, just commenting on the way that it can cause confusion.
That player would probably claim that he was frustrated when he said it.....and no doubt he probably was....so how do you explain to that player that if he had said it immediately the whistle went instead of waiting 10 seconds he would still be on the pitch?
Because at the point the whistle went, he hadn't realised it was the OP who had given the signal to the referee that an offence had occurred?
 
Do you mean quiet not quite?

For an assessor to offer an opinion on anything that you don't agree with seems to be incredibly poor in your world, yet you agree that you'd happily see a yellow or red here. Make your mind up, either what I said or what the OP told the referee to do is the right answer. So swing a leg over the fence and jump down one side will you

There is no right answer as each referee has a different viewpoint to what the find offensive

Which causes quite the problem clearly!
 
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OK, for those doubting Thomas' among you, I'm going to put my points across as much on a line by line basis to demonstrate that this shouldn't have been a dismissal


So there I was, enjoying my time on the line in last nights cup final.


Big game? You were up for it. Players were up for it. Possibly players who aren't used to working with neutral assistants? One of those neutral assistants gives a decision, which if he'd been as far away as the referee, he may not have given or probably wouldn't have heard the comment afterwards?


Half time whistle blows. Lovely.


We walk back out and get the game underway. Greens (attacking), Blues (defending). The ball has been pumped upfield by the greens goalie, the drop zone is ten yards inside the blues half and about ten yards out from myself. Green and blue both jump to challenge. Green looks at the ball, then the player, then the ball again...


So player looks at the ball, then his nearest opponent, then the ball, then challenges for the ball and the opponent falls to the ground.?


He bundles over the blue, referee looks at me and I give the signal for the free kick (to blue). Player reacts angrily. "What are you on about lino".


First thing, why are you hanging about? Surely when the decision has been given, you should be on your toes and up the line to re-position in line with the 2nd rear most defender?


"Player, you've gone through the back of him".... "But I wasn't even facing the ball". "Which is why you've gone through the back of him".... I look at him, he looks at me.. there's a pause... he's thinking...


Second thing, why are you engaging with the player? He’s not going to be happy with you, is he? Considering the context of the game and his age, he’s always going to have a smart comment to come back with, isn’t he? Another reason to be on your toes up the line


"Ah f**k off lino"....


How loudly? And yes, in a Cup Final it does matter.


He then throws his arm up in the air and turns his back to me... The little tinker!!


The classic dissent by action… punishable by a caution. Take this in context again. In a Cup Final, everyone and everybody gets just a little more lee-way, everyone, even the officials. It’s an occasion to be managed. It’s a very different sort of game from a semi-final or a promotion/relegation decider.


I flag the ref over, he approaches and turns next to me, facing the field of play. I explain what was said. "It's your call DB".


Big mistake. HUGE MISTAKE. It’s his Final, it’s his call, it’s his match control that will go out the window


"Red, all day long".


Another mistake, you should tell him what happened, not what you want


"you sure"?.


This referee isn’t so daft. He knows the effect of this decision. He offers you a way out, but you charge headlong


"Absolutely. I won't be spoken to like that, in that situation!"


I’ve worked with some pretty senior people in work and football and a single uttered comment like that would not even register as a dismissal/disciplinary offence. It might be a caution or a b*ll*cking, especially if it comes from an U18. Or maybe that’s the issue, you didn’t like a youngster speaking to you like that?


Player gets dismissed (he's unhappy).


I’m not surprised, his hormones, adrenaline and overzealous officiating may have just cost his team the Final.


A few shouts from the crowd on my side, nothing like I expected though.


Maybe because they didn’t hear it


They obviously heard it.


How can you be sure? Did you ask them or did you have to tell them why he’d been sent off?


The rest of the game, not a peep.


10 minutes before full time, it's 1-1. Referee awards a penalty. I remember his pre match briefing regarding the procedure. Before the ball is kicked, the keeper is 4 yards off his line and subsequently saves the shot. I flag, penalty retaken.


What were the pre-match instructions regarding the taking of penalties and the leeway, the referee would allow? Also 4 yards? That lad should sign up for Rio if he can move that far, that fast. If the referee has asked for a flag when you want a penalty re-taken, he’s hanging you out to dry. You should merely stand still, use a buzzer (if you have one) and not return to your patrol path on the line.


Keeper does exactly the same thing but the ball goes in the net.


Got to love keepers who do that and then it’s the referee’s fault for not taking it again…


Queue the shouts from the bench.


Greens went on to win 3-1 with 10 men.


Thank goodness for that or things might have been less than friendly at the end of proceedings if they’d lost


You know what annoys me? As a player, I don't put myself in these situations. If I did, I would accept whatever disciplinary sanction came my way. But the guys I've been officiating recently just seem to have no regard whatsoever for their own actions.


That’s right. It’s a common train of thought with many referees I speak to. There is no doubt indiscipline is on the rise. Times they are a changing. Now like you I wanted to be the protector of standards, to rage against every little instance of indiscipline, but I found out pretty quickly that waging a one man war wasn’t going to solve things.


There's a few ways that you can get away with telling me to f-off. In the instant I blow the whistle, if it is frustration, I will manage it. A quick word and maybe a caution would be suffice depending on the nature of the player. Perfectly manageable situation. Absolutely depends on the nature of it. But I certainly won't tolerate being told to f-off when I am in conversation with the player and the incident had passed. That is completely manageable by the player.


Maybe for you as the player, but not for a 17/18 year old who might be playing in his first cup final and got a bit annoyed at you signalling he’d pushed an opponent?


All parties at the game agreed with my my "match-changing" decisions. The ref, asst, 4th official (RDO) and the head of the youth competition who was behind the goal for the penalties. Yet, it was me that ruined the game. The penalty was to even it out... Y'know, all that rubbish!

Nevermind, it comes with the territory. Apart from that, I hope you enjoyed the game overall
 
So what would you have done, if this was you as the assistant?

It completely depends on how it was said. It's impossible to decide from the written text but simply if I felt it was personal and offensive I'd go with red but if it wasn't said in a aggressive threatening way id be going dissent but as with all S6 calls its a 'YHTBT' scenario

Very hard to imagine how exactly it was said. Only DB knows how it made him feel at the time
 
It completely depends on how it was said. It's impossible to decide from the written text but simply if I felt it was personal and offensive I'd go with red but if it wasn't said in a aggressive threatening way id be going dissent but as with all S6 calls its a 'YHTBT' scenario

Very hard to imagine how exactly it was said. Only DB knows how it made him feel at the time
Is it very hard to imagine? So if he whispers it quietly and venomously but not aggressive or threateningly, then you'd go dissent?
 
Now now people let's calm it I see people generally getting out of control of themselves and this is why discussions are closing now if you want me bring a member of staff to close this then I will let's be nice and for once make it a discussion and not a punt at one another
 
Now now people let's calm it I see people generally getting out of control of themselves and this is why discussions are closing now if you want me bring a member of staff to close this then I will let's be nice and for once make it a discussion and not a punt at one another

No need for the sensitivity. I assume you're referring to myself and @Brian Hamilton and I'm sure I speak for both when no offence is being taken either side, nor is there a row going on but rather a discussion
 
Ive seen a referee swear at a player before and I think if I did that in this day and age id soon get a soccer punch in the kisser
 
I'm trying to calm it I'm seeing so many discussion just turn into arguments instead of matters of opinion and there getting closed now if you cannot start a thread up without having an argument we might learn from people something instead of cutting threads off and im getting so sick and tired of the arguing instead of matters of opinion if cannot control having an argument with another refereeing colleague then leave the forum
 
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