HertsFinest
Next Weeks Ref
Craig pal I completely agree with ya but this really isn't one of those threads 
Junior/Youth U18 cup final
- Thread starter DB
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Absolutely correct. This is a discussion. As for my post dissecting DB's original post, that wasn't a pop at him, I'm trying to explain my thought processes on why I think that wasn't the right way for things to go in that particular situation. Sometime we just need groupchat over VOiP
He's already here @SM
Sure it can. Look at Alan Rickman's performances as Snape, he's venomous but not remotely threatening
Well that made for some interesting reading. I can't be bothered to dissect Brian's post autopsy above because ive genuinely got better things to do.
Player told me to f**k off. He walked. Simple as that. I literally wanted to share my experience on the game, not have my complete post cut up and questioned line by line. Is that really what this forum is about?
If I was playing and I told a match official to f-off in the context that this player did, I would start walking to the changing rooms as soon as the last "f" left my mouth.
Thanks for the replies though, but I'm done posting he because it is getting a little nitty-gritty. That is not what I wanted to happen. Referees will naturally question and criticise their peers, I get that. Again, thanks for the replies. I'd be happy for this post to be closed now
Player told me to f**k off. He walked. Simple as that. I literally wanted to share my experience on the game, not have my complete post cut up and questioned line by line. Is that really what this forum is about?
If I was playing and I told a match official to f-off in the context that this player did, I would start walking to the changing rooms as soon as the last "f" left my mouth.
Thanks for the replies though, but I'm done posting he because it is getting a little nitty-gritty. That is not what I wanted to happen. Referees will naturally question and criticise their peers, I get that. Again, thanks for the replies. I'd be happy for this post to be closed now
RegalRef
Politically Incorrect
"WILL YOU CHILDREN PLEASE PLAY NICELY??"
"But we are?"
"Oh. Errrr....Well.....Carry on then"
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Yeah.....I'm surprised at Brian's response. Of course, Brian isn't the only assessor on here
Surely there's no possibly way that an assessor could criticise a referee for sending off a player who makes a conscious, deliberate comment of 'f*** off lino'. In fact, I find the comments that the AR should put up with being abused to be very disturbing.
I also disagree with his criticism of the referee here. As you know, tone and manner have an influence on the decision here. The referee has acknowledged that in asking the AR what he recommends - which is perfectly within the scope of the referee. The ref didn't witness it so the AR is better positioned to make that judgement. the assumption that by asking 'are you sure' is begging DB to change his mind is, frankly, bizarre - and again, I'm very concerned that you think it was an 'out' that he should have taken. Seems to be greatly contributing to the problem of referees, and not players, being responsible for their actions. Seems like Brian is taking the 'DB has ruined the game approach'.
I also disagree with BH's criticism of DB engaging with the player. Referees are usually told they need to talk to players - now BH is saying he shouldn't have?
Of course, BH seems to be wanting to make a number of excuses for the player....it was a cup final....he was young....DB argued with him.....better man than DB don't think OFFINABUS is a red card......then of course there's the unfair implication that sending off a player for something like this is a 'one man war'. I'm sure I'm not the only person who was rather surprised at some of the positions BH has taken here.
To be honest, I don't think I could disagree more strongly with almost everything BH has written in this thread. DB certainly has my support for the decision and the approach, start to finish.
Surely there's no possibly way that an assessor could criticise a referee for sending off a player who makes a conscious, deliberate comment of 'f*** off lino'. In fact, I find the comments that the AR should put up with being abused to be very disturbing.
I also disagree with his criticism of the referee here. As you know, tone and manner have an influence on the decision here. The referee has acknowledged that in asking the AR what he recommends - which is perfectly within the scope of the referee. The ref didn't witness it so the AR is better positioned to make that judgement. the assumption that by asking 'are you sure' is begging DB to change his mind is, frankly, bizarre - and again, I'm very concerned that you think it was an 'out' that he should have taken. Seems to be greatly contributing to the problem of referees, and not players, being responsible for their actions. Seems like Brian is taking the 'DB has ruined the game approach'.
I also disagree with BH's criticism of DB engaging with the player. Referees are usually told they need to talk to players - now BH is saying he shouldn't have?
Of course, BH seems to be wanting to make a number of excuses for the player....it was a cup final....he was young....DB argued with him.....better man than DB don't think OFFINABUS is a red card......then of course there's the unfair implication that sending off a player for something like this is a 'one man war'. I'm sure I'm not the only person who was rather surprised at some of the positions BH has taken here.
To be honest, I don't think I could disagree more strongly with almost everything BH has written in this thread. DB certainly has my support for the decision and the approach, start to finish.
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
The point about the referee......it's poor practice to be asking your AR for a solution....get them to state the facts of what happened, not opinions or recommendations, and make your own decisions based on what they tell you.
100% the " are you sure?" question was the referee saying " you know its a cup final, and I'm not 100% comfortable with a red card but want to support my AR " just not in so many words.....
100% the " are you sure?" question was the referee saying " you know its a cup final, and I'm not 100% comfortable with a red card but want to support my AR " just not in so many words.....
Padfoot, that was the impression I got from the ref; I replied "You can't say that, in that manner to a match official". I was a little under pressure with it being a cup final. But whatever the occasion, I will not be spoken to like that. It doesn't set a good example to the lads that heard it if I took no action.
Giving the circumstances, what was said and the manner it was said in, my decision was 100% correct I bet if you were reffing me and I told any of you guys to f××k off, I'd be walking
Giving the circumstances, what was said and the manner it was said in, my decision was 100% correct
I bet if you were reffing me and I told any of you guys to f××k off, I'd be walking CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
I've asked my AR 'are you sure' before. Because if I'm going to make a decision that I can't necessarily back up myself, I want to know he's 110% certain. Saying that he said it looking for an out makes no sense - if he didn't want to give it, he didn't want to give it.
I personally don't think you can categorically state that it's bad practice for the referee to ask the AR for his opinion. It depends on his reasoning - does he want to avoid making the decision, or does he believe the AR is better informed to make the decision by being the one to witness it?
We've all agreed that the manner in which it was said is relevant to the decision.
So how can you say that the manner in which it is said is relevant to the decision, but criticise somebody for not making a decision with no information on the manner in which it was said? It seems like a few people on here are arguing with themselves without even realising it!!
NFI why 'cup final' means it's okay to intentionally and personally tell an official to 'F*** off'.
SM
The avuncular one
I'm not sure what the debate is here. from what has been posted, a red card OFFINABUS is an appropriate response. Others may wish to do things differently (which would be the discussion) but the action taken fits the situation described so telling DB he is 100% wrong seems a little uncalled for.
I've not yet been in the situation where I've had to make a red-card decision as an assistant, but it was my understanding that if I'm in that position and making a decision that the referee is unable to make, then it's my responsibility to write the report after the match?
With that in mind, I think it's perfectly acceptable to ensure that the assistant is willing to make that decision as if he were in the middle, and is happy to back up that decision by taking responsibility for the report. I don't think that automatically implies that the referee is looking for a get-out - although that could also be a possibility.
With that in mind, I think it's perfectly acceptable to ensure that the assistant is willing to make that decision as if he were in the middle, and is happy to back up that decision by taking responsibility for the report. I don't think that automatically implies that the referee is looking for a get-out - although that could also be a possibility.
Spot on, I submitted the report that evening
When I asked the referee after the game why he said "are you sure", his reply was simple and straight to the point. He didn't hear or see the incident. I was junior to him and in a cup final with the score at 1-1, he wanted to make sure I was certain of the outcome, which I was. There's also the added fact the stands were behind me so I was about to get 40 minutes of abuse... Although, they were having a shout for no longer than a minute, nothing after that... Which made me think I got the decision spot on and they must have heard it and agreed. Otherwise I'd have had stick all game, surely?
Thanks for your feedback. I will treat it like a gift.Yeah.....I'm surprised at Brian's response. Of course, Brian isn't the only assessor on here
Surely there's no possibly way that an assessor could criticise a referee for sending off a player who makes a conscious, deliberate comment of 'f*** off lino'. In fact, I find the comments that the AR should put up with being abused to be very disturbing.
I also disagree with his criticism of the referee here. As you know, tone and manner have an influence on the decision here. The referee has acknowledged that in asking the AR what he recommends - which is perfectly within the scope of the referee. The ref didn't witness it so the AR is better positioned to make that judgement. the assumption that by asking 'are you sure' is begging DB to change his mind is, frankly, bizarre - and again, I'm very concerned that you think it was an 'out' that he should have taken. Seems to be greatly contributing to the problem of referees, and not players, being responsible for their actions. Seems like Brian is taking the 'DB has ruined the game approach'.
I also disagree with BH's criticism of DB engaging with the player. Referees are usually told they need to talk to players - now BH is saying he shouldn't have?
Of course, BH seems to be wanting to make a number of excuses for the player....it was a cup final....he was young....DB argued with him.....better man than DB don't think OFFINABUS is a red card......then of course there's the unfair implication that sending off a player for something like this is a 'one man war'. I'm sure I'm not the only person who was rather surprised at some of the positions BH has taken here.
To be honest, I don't think I could disagree more strongly with almost everything BH has written in this thread. DB certainly has my support for the decision and the approach, start to finish.
THIS!!!
No begging (as suggested above) just the referee trying to see if @DB wanted to re-consider in view of the context.
As for saying @DB was wrong I provided a detailed and at times labourious analysis putting the incident in context, in the hope that it would make my rationale for my viewpoint clearer. If he himself says he can't be bothered to read it (got better things to do with his time?) then what is the point of me trying to help develop and educate the referees on this forum. No I don't always get it right but you need to appreciate that none of you were born as fully formed FIFA officials.
I'm beginning to understand where the IFAB are coming from with their 'spirit of the game' remarks.
Like a can of Hai Karate at Christmas, or the most delicious meal on your birthday?
You got it in one
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Interesting, because this thread makes me understand why so many referees leave the game....
Can't help but wonder how you'd feel if somebody gave you that sort of response after you assessed them.
Which does not, even using one's most extreme imagination, even subtly imply that the wrong decision was made. Just that he wants to be 100% certain before making a big decision. Some very, very bizarre thought processes you seem to be promoting on here Brian......I'm sure I'm not the only person wondering if somebody has hijacked BH's account!!
- AR is required to be abused
- Abuse that is offensive, foul and personal is still not a red card (no idea what is)
- OFFINABUS doesn't apply to cup finals or youth football. the kids shouldn't be held responsible for their actions because they're so excited (I mean, I know that logic applies to a puppy that wees on the floor when you're getting him excited, never thought of extending that to 18 year olds!!)
- if the referee asks the AR for confirmation, he should always change his opinion
- while the manner in which a comment is said has an impact upon which card is issued, if the referee has not witnessed the comment he is then expected to make a decision without knowing how the comment was said.
-referees should never ask their AR's opinion on a card for an incident they didn't witness.
- match officials should not talk to players
-OFFINABUS doesn't exist. If there's a big burly referee who wouldn't care about a comment, then none of us should send a player off.
Following from that I can only presume Last Week's Ref also doesn't exist - or is it because it's the final, there's no next week, so it doesn't matter what the AR and referee do because they can't be last week's ref, thus just let everything go as long as it doesn't upset the players?
Did I miss anything? I'm presuming this was all explained by IFAB when they issued a 'Spirit of the Game' directive?
Brian, with all due respect here and I do not mean to be rude, developing and educating referees should be done in a certain way. Your approach, at times isn't the best. Sometimes it can be belittling and often feels like you are just trying to prove you're "better" than the rest. I've seen a few posts where I've just wanted to say "Oh come on man, let's be constructive here" but I've kept quiet. I completely respect the fact you are highly experienced, a tutor/mentor, an assessor etc but I feel with a little bit more compassion for the guys you are trying to educate and develop, you would come across so much better. Now, this is a forum and sometimes text is misinterpreted completely the wrong way and it's often difficult to put the point across so I'd like to think you're much better in the real world. Again, I stress that I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just making an observation.
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