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one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
There is the specifics mandates in the LOTG, and there are the protocols/directions given by the competition. My understanding is that the expectation from leagues that have adopted VAR, other than in the PL discussions, has been that the R take a look before changing a subjective decision--whether to maintain the clarity that the R is making the decision (not the guy upstairs) or for purposes of selling calls. (But I could be over generalizing.)
The specific mandates on pg 140, 18/19 LOTG pretty much say the same thing as the protocol i quoted. I think the point is that both the protocol and the laws give the referee the discretion to simply accept the recommendation of VAR in both subjective and factual cases. And IMO, OP was a perfect candidate to use that discretion in a subjective decision to avoid unnecessary delays.
 

Peter Grove

RefChat Addict
There is the specifics mandates in the LOTG, and there are the protocols/directions given by the competition
There is no provision anywhere that I am aware of, for competitions to set their own VAR protocols. The IFAB has issued a protocol and mandated that all competitions wishing to use VAR must receive approval from the IFAB and follow the IFAB protocol. As @one points out, the Laws of the Game contain a whole section (8 pages) on how VAR must be used which is basically just a summary of the previously-issued, full IFAB protocol.

The EPL may wish to minimize the amount and length of OFR reviews but they must do so in a way that conforms to the IFAB's VAR protocol. As the Laws say:
The use of VARs in football matches is based on a number of principles, all of which must apply in every match using VARs.
These principles are clearly laid out in the Laws and as with all other parts of the laws, individual competitions, associations or confederations may not make up their own versions of the law.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
They will in England next season, and has already happened in the trials. As I understand it the referee will only go to the pitch side monitor in very borderline circumstances, and that is how it should be in my opinion. It may well be Oliver in the middle being told by Mason from VAR that it is a penalty, he will accept it and just give the penalty unless he is told VAR aren't 100% sure.

That is truly horrifying. It demotes the centre referee to robot.
Who carries the can if the VAR is wrong? Ref or VAR man?
No point ref being out there if he is simply going to accept what a (lesser) ref says.
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
Not sure why the 4th official needs to be an SG1 referee in the first place?
He doesn't. SG2 referees regularly take on fourth duties for Premier league games when being primed for SG1.
I am sure I recall Tierney, Scott, Coote, Kavanagh, Pawson all doing fourth duties whilst SG2 and then following season they started getting PL middles
 

CapnBloodbeard

RefChat Addict
edit

nothing like the same. stop opening cans of worms for attention seeking, which are not there. its boring
"for attention seeking". Forget your weet bix this morning Ciley? No need for that attitude. I don't accuse your posts of being 'attention seeking'.

I don't see the VAR that different at all to the AR.

By your argument, without a VAR the referee would never make a big decision purely on an AR's word because 'he's too important for a lesser referee to tell him what to do'

So what's the difference? Sure, there's the option of video, but I'm disappointed that VAR implementation seems to forget that on-field review isn't actually required. In Australia, at least, we're even seeing it for objective decisions. Free kick outside, VAR shows it's inside - why does the ref need to check that? Things like that.

So I think this is one part of the system that probably isn't working as written and either needs to be rewritten or applied differently.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
Ok am happy to bite. OP without VAR, AR gets ref over, says, hey, thats a red not yellow, ref still has option of sticking with yelllow, or going with AR red

With proposed? VAR, its a red, no questions asked, no referee opinion

Its an order from VAR to dismiss, not an opinion or advice, as would be from AR
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
Ok am happy to bite. OP without VAR, AR gets ref over, says, hey, thats a red not yellow, ref still has option of sticking with yelllow, or going with AR red

With proposed? VAR, its a red, no questions asked, no referee opinion

Its an order from VAR to dismiss, not an opinion or advice, as would be from AR
I think you may want to re-read the posts. Nobody ever said VAR makes the decision. It was always the referee who makes the decision. So if VAR says "its a red, no questions asked", the referee can say "No, I'm sticking to yellow and don't need to see the replay" or "I'll have a look at the replay and make a decision" or "thanks mate, I'll changed it to red, no need to look at the replay".

The advice to English referees, as far as I read it is to put greater trust in your VAR to minimise OFR. But if they want to, they can still go for OFR. Otherwise the advice would be against protocol and IFAB/FIFA directives.
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
I think you may want to re-read the posts. Nobody ever said VAR makes the decision. It was always the referee who makes the decision. So if VAR says "its a red, no questions asked", the referee can say "No, I'm sticking to yellow and don't need to see the replay" or "I'll have a look at the replay and make a decision" or "thanks mate, I'll changed it to red, no need to look at the replay".

The advice to English referees, as far as I read it is to put greater trust in your VAR to minimise OFR. But if they want to, they can still go for OFR. Otherwise the advice would be against protocol and IFAB/FIFA directives.


I was referring to Rustys post which makes it clear that Mason next season tells Oliver its a red, then thats it
No re reading needed,
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
Level 6 Referee
The Premier Leagues's interpretation of VAR is better than I've seen elsewhere. The poxy pitchside screen is one of the blights on the game. The EPL chiefs have merely realised that the referee has the option not to use it and trust the VAR in the vast majority of decisions
I've indicated before that ARs are now Glorified ball-boys. This EPL approach does detract substantially from the on-field referee's duty, but this is a price worth paying from the spectators perspective, given that pitchside reviews are a major component of the shambles
The role of the on-field officials was always likely to be diminished once VAR became a 64 page dogs dinner
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
There really is no purpose , or, in times to come, will be no purpose to the on field officials.
Can blast a whistle from a control room over the tannoy
Can show a red/yellow card to said player on a big screen and off he goes, with nobody to complain to,
I have already been ridiculed for saying the ARs wont have a flag, fine, I accept that but stand by it
 

alexgr

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
The Premier Leagues's interpretation of VAR is better than I've seen elsewhere. The poxy pitchside screen is one of the blights on the game. The EPL chiefs have merely realised that the referee has the option not to use it and trust the VAR in the vast majority of decisions
I've indicated before that ARs are now Glorified ball-boys. This EPL approach does detract substantially from the on-field referee's duty, but this is a price worth paying from the spectators perspective, given that pitchside reviews are a major component of the shambles
The role of the on-field officials was always likely to be diminished once VAR became a 64 page dogs dinner
Or do what rugby does and replay it on the big screens for everyone to see there. Complete transparency and accountability
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
Level 6 Referee
There really is no purpose , or, in times to come, will be no purpose to the on field officials.
Can blast a whistle from a control room over the tannoy
Can show a red/yellow card to said player on a big screen and off he goes, with nobody to complain to,
I have already been ridiculed for saying the ARs wont have a flag, fine, I accept that but stand by it
I agree. It's the future. At least it's a realistic future prophecy. The Ref will will merely be there to dance around the ring to keep the cheats from engaging with one another, while the ARs wave their wands around
Top referees could gravitate down the leagues in search of stadia without a plethora of cameras
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
Any top elite stadium with the VAR screens etc does not need an on field ref.
Blast a whistle down the tannoy when needed
Show players face etc with a yellow or red on screen when needed
Ideal for EPL as the refs merely stand back and watch confrontation then deal with it,
No purpose at all for referee to be on field

in recent years the ref and Ar dont need to call ball over goal line, a watch/beam does it
AR barely needs give offside now, as a screen with check anyway
Ref can give or not give his pk/red card/whatever, safe in knowledge someone will tell him in his ear if its wrong

natural progression would suggest no on field (human) is required at all.
 

socal lurker

RefChat Addict
There is no provision anywhere that I am aware of, for competitions to set their own VAR protocols. The IFAB has issued a protocol and mandated that all competitions wishing to use VAR must receive approval from the IFAB and follow the IFAB protocol. As @one points out, the Laws of the Game contain a whole section (8 pages) on how VAR must be used which is basically just a summary of the previously-issued, full IFAB protocol.

The EPL may wish to minimize the amount and length of OFR reviews but they must do so in a way that conforms to the IFAB's VAR protocol. As the Laws say:

These principles are clearly laid out in the Laws and as with all other parts of the laws, individual competitions, associations or confederations may not make up their own versions of the law.
I respectfully think you are being naive on this. League referees have supervisors who have expectations on how they do their jobs. And those supervisors, league or referee association or assignor, give directions. Yes, the pro leagues are all "following" the IFAB protocols, but they are doing it with other guidance and directives given. PL has given very different guidance than other leagues. MLS/PRO in the US has directed referees to do OFR on things no one else is. My sole point on this was that you can't point to an individual referee and say "he wouldn't take advice from a lesser ref without seeing it himself" as had been done above. There is guidance beyond what is in the Laws, and my understanding (outside the PL) has been for subjective decisions they powers that be have wanted OFR. Can anyone point to a subjective decision that has been overturned without an OFR?
 

Ciley Myrus

RefChat Addict
Does Antony Taylor giving a pen at Fulham v Oldham count?
I might have mistaken off hand what happened but, he gave a pen, then without going to the screen, was told its a pen
It was not.
This does not mean the situation as referred to above, but it was clear as day the man in the van was not going to "overrule" Englands top (?) man

Which is along my point, there is, whether anyone accepts it or not, snobbery, if thats the right word, and, a chain of command.
 
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