F*ck off
- Thread starter Joshref
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There isnt but it could be AA. It could be lack of respect for game or it could be Unspecified behaviour.
Just because he used a swear word doesn't rule out a caution
I wouldn't be going red for this, but I wouldn't criticise those that do.
This is why when I coached I always said to the players "know your referee". Some were very relaxed about how players spoke to them, some expected a bit more respect, and one was an absolute nightmare who enjoyed giving out cards.
This is why when I coached I always said to the players "know your referee". Some were very relaxed about how players spoke to them, some expected a bit more respect, and one was an absolute nightmare who enjoyed giving out cards.
Anubis
RefChat Addict
op, based purely on whats typed, no red for me
as posted often, say, a punch at u13 should be treated like a punch at adults, as much as we dont wish to, or like to hear it, industrial language at u13 based on whats typed, for me, is dealt with same as had it been in an adult game
we dont have carte blanche to dismiss for fcuk off because the player was 13
a run past and a, hey, gonna cut that out, yes
Said aggressove,threatening, ( tone), we can start considering sanction
said to referee, absolutely we are taking action
saiid as industrial language, as much as morally we might not wish to hear it, it does not automatically merit and more or less sanction than had it come from an adult.
the kid could continue saying, feck, every two mins, there is no offence in that itself, feck off everytime loses ball, again, no offence
feck off, to opponent, a/a/a, at a push, if you considered his tone to be aggressive
bk to the op, am sure the referee would be able to word a report in such a way it would justify a red.
as posted often, say, a punch at u13 should be treated like a punch at adults, as much as we dont wish to, or like to hear it, industrial language at u13 based on whats typed, for me, is dealt with same as had it been in an adult game
we dont have carte blanche to dismiss for fcuk off because the player was 13
a run past and a, hey, gonna cut that out, yes
Said aggressove,threatening, ( tone), we can start considering sanction
said to referee, absolutely we are taking action
saiid as industrial language, as much as morally we might not wish to hear it, it does not automatically merit and more or less sanction than had it come from an adult.
the kid could continue saying, feck, every two mins, there is no offence in that itself, feck off everytime loses ball, again, no offence
feck off, to opponent, a/a/a, at a push, if you considered his tone to be aggressive
bk to the op, am sure the referee would be able to word a report in such a way it would justify a red.
You also have the lovely USB ‘other’ option too.
Gamespoiler
Well-Known Member
I think I must be alone here, I fully agree with the referee, this language at that age group directed at another player is unacceptable, red card.
It's not our job as referees to police the standards of language in society as a whole. "Unacceptable language" is not defined as a red card offence in the LOTG - our job is to judge if it meets the Offensive/Insulting/Abusive criteria laid out in the book, and that includes taking account of context and reaction to help us decide if the criteria have been met.
I'm not outright saying you're wrong to show red here BTW - it's a judgement call and may be appropriate in some situations. I'm just urging a degree of caution in terms of overstepping the line of what you're actually being employed to do.
@Anubis @GraemeS - I have just deleted the recent posts from you on this thread. The conversation descended in to more than acceptable on the forum.
You can re-start the various points you made, if you wish, in a more reasoned manner. The thread was regarding OFFINSABUS in junior football, and that what we should have stayed on.
You can re-start the various points you made, if you wish, in a more reasoned manner. The thread was regarding OFFINSABUS in junior football, and that what we should have stayed on.
Gamespoiler
Well-Known Member
Don't mention the word employment Graeme, I will be asking for sick pay and holiday pay next.
I fully understand the laws of the game and offinabus, I would dismiss as offinabus. I consider this offensive, insulting and abusive in the context described in the OP. And yes I would look at it differently in junior football as I do in OA just as I look at fouls differently.
In junior football, especially as young as U13, I see my role as extending beyond applying strict laws of the game. We all have a duty to educate and by allowing this situation to pass without a redcard does not set a good example for children of this age. I get it that it's all about opinions and context and you had to be there etc.
I can see your point, I really can. In the same way I could see the point of the referee who I talked to initially. After all, clearly a player was offended enough to complain, so OFFINABUS definitely has an argument. But for me, still I wouldn’t red card here.
I don’t agree that the language is unacceptable either. Well, I guess it is, but these kids will be hearing far worse all the time. I was in Year 8/U13s in 2015-2016, so not a million years ago, and I can tell you “**** off” isn’t exactly the worst thing kids hear. They will hear far far worse insults on the playground, and I can say I’ve overhead phrases I would be More offended by on the pitch at that age group as well. “**** off“ is like a standard saying for a lot of these kids.
Is it right? I’m not here to condone it. I’ve never had a dirty mouth, so sending off for swearing wouldn’t have affected me. I’m just saying these kids hear that a lot, and will say it a lot. So I don’t think it’s quite “unacceptable language that leads to a red.” In the same way I disagreed with the referee in my original post saying he’d send kids off basically for any swear word. A yellow card for USB/AaAA does the job here for me. Calms the situation down, let’s the kid know he shouldn’t say it without going the extreme of sending him off.
But I can completely see your opinion. As I mentioned in another post, OFFINABUS is such a subjective call, that’s why I find it so interesting, because we as refs won’t see eye to eye on it. The good book doesn’t have a list of banned words. Obviously there’s some e.g. Discriminatory words, that should all warrant a red from us, but in terms of swearinf I think it’s quite an interesting debate.
Anubis
RefChat Addict
The posts are proof in type that some referees do consider themselves as some kinda ethical guardian,
The reality is we are there to adjudge the lotg to the best of our consistent and neutral ability, not introduce our own personal viewpoint in the supposed guise of development.
If along the way, we get the chance to develop, thats a bonus.
industrial language, for this is all the post is regarding, is not a sending off offence. No matter if as referee we think it should be, and the offensive, insulting law sweeps across the board, it is not age dependant.
Teacher, parent, coach have the moral responsibility here, not, ' football referee' unless we upgrade our position in our own head.
i dont like spitting and i dont think 13 yos should be spitting, however, unless its a breach of the lotg. i cannot red card for it, anymore than i can ignore someone scoring the winner in the cup final taking his shirt off and running to the crowd even tho i might consider the mandatory yc to be harsh. Thats the beauty of a universal law book.
Gamespoiler
Well-Known Member
Supposed guise of development? Nothing supposed about it. We all have a duty of care to these children whether you accept it or not. Helping them to understand what is acceptable language and what isn't is part of that.
John I guess a different generation so you see it differently. Would a head teacher or class teacher in school accept this language? Would it be acceptable to use in an interview? What about to a stranger on the street?
I do work in education and do work with challenging children and I am a parent too and hear far worse than this on a daily basis but the language still gets challenged.
F*ck off is an offensive term
John I guess a different generation so you see it differently. Would a head teacher or class teacher in school accept this language? Would it be acceptable to use in an interview? What about to a stranger on the street?
I do work in education and do work with challenging children and I am a parent too and hear far worse than this on a daily basis but the language still gets challenged.
F*ck off is an offensive term
ChasObserverRefDeveloper
Regular Contributor
Your statement about industrial language not being a sending off offence will be read by many less experienced referees, who sadly will believe it to be true because you have said so here.
If a stranger tells me in the street to "F### off", that's offensive in most people's opinion.
If a player tells a referee (or a student tells a teacher) "You're f###ing useless", that's in most people's opinion offensive/abusive/insulting.
Whatever the age of the players, the LOTG specify the action to take. More and more referees are electing to ignore that part of Law 12, and when challenged quote "industrial language" as their excuse.
My local Step5/6 league have mandated observers to comment when O/I/A language and/or actions are not dealt with in an appropriate manner by the referee, and adjust the mark accordingly. Referees were told the same, in advance, but several have chosen to continue ignoring Law 12.
Appropriate action may include a warning early in the game (to the offender but heard by others), a reminder to the captains, and/or a dismissal.
If someone tells you to f**k off or says it out of frustration when you give a decision would you send them off for that?
Furthering on form that point - I usually say dissent is a persistent whinge - if when I go to speak to them about it they argue back - caution.
As soon as they say "Ref that was s**t" I tend to caution
As soon as they say "F**k off - aimed at an official" or call either myself or lino something its a red
What is people's opinion on this?
Furthering on form that point - I usually say dissent is a persistent whinge - if when I go to speak to them about it they argue back - caution.
As soon as they say "Ref that was s**t" I tend to caution
As soon as they say "F**k off - aimed at an official" or call either myself or lino something its a red
What is people's opinion on this?
Anubis
RefChat Addict
The industrial language used as it was in ths op is not a red card
crossed wires if you took my post to mean it cant ever be a red and i doubt i tyoed when directed at a match official that is ok
context, tone,readong of the big picture
we all knoaw the ultimate thing we can be called is not even a sweary word, its its context that riles us.
the man in the street point is binned instantly as the football park is not the same as the street, unless its a common occurance for violent conduct on the pitch to be met with police charges.
Striker elbows defende on pitch, red card, two games?
does it in the pub, possible court.
cant compare the two