so would you suggest no action at all??
Going with your instinct
- Thread starter Conor Murphy
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Kes
I'll Decide ...
Agreed.
It's like those "handball-in-the-penalty-area" incidents. The ball is played in, you see it momentarily disappear behind the midriff of a defender who has his back to you, there is an immediate and vehement shout of "handball" from virtually every attacking player that side of him, and even the defender himself looks sheepish and guilty as hell. You're certain he must have controlled it with his hand or arm, but because you didn't actually see it occur, you have to wave the shouts for a penalty away.
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
No.
The correct course of action was red for the retaliation and admitting you didn't see the elbow.
It's very difficult to put your hands up in a situation like this and admit you missed it.....but its the right thing to do.
Just for the record Padders... I do agree with everything you've said (except bringing my personal circumstances into the conversation - that cut deep).
Two things though that would go through my head... Every single sign is pointing to the fact he has been elbowed in the face. Yes you may not have seen the contact but you saw everything up to and after. 99% sure is close enough! Remember, offences like striking an opponent do not have to make contact for you to penalise. If you have seen an elbow raised and thrust towards an opponent, that's an attempt to strike all day long. That's an attempt at violent conduct/SFP in anyone's book (Well, most people's).
Secondly, imagine what would have happened had he not sent the first offender off... Match control completely lost if you ask me.
Any attempt to strike a player, especially with an elbow where you'd be intent on causing harm or/and injury, regardless of whether contact is made or not is a red card offence all day long for me. There is no place for that on a football field, or anywhere for that matter (unless you're one of those UFC lunatics)
* SFP or VC depending on situation
Two things though that would go through my head... Every single sign is pointing to the fact he has been elbowed in the face. Yes you may not have seen the contact but you saw everything up to and after. 99% sure is close enough! Remember, offences like striking an opponent do not have to make contact for you to penalise. If you have seen an elbow raised and thrust towards an opponent, that's an attempt to strike all day long. That's an attempt at violent conduct/SFP in anyone's book (Well, most people's).
Secondly, imagine what would have happened had he not sent the first offender off... Match control completely lost if you ask me.
Any attempt to strike a player, especially with an elbow where you'd be intent on causing harm or/and injury, regardless of whether contact is made or not is a red card offence all day long for me. There is no place for that on a football field, or anywhere for that matter (unless you're one of those UFC lunatics)
* SFP or VC depending on situation
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
Great right up to the point where the OP has already said that all he saw was the supposed offender look over his shoulder......didn't see any elbow action at all!
Totally agree that if you see the elbow raised and thrown towards an opponent, you don't need to see it connect...the offence is already enough for a dismissal.
However that isn't the case here.......
Disagree about the match control.....being honest with players about not seeing something does not always destroy your match control and can sometimes enhance it.
It's a horrible situation to be in, but as a referee you have to honest and act accordingly.
That's what makes us different from players....we have moral fortitude and behave accordingly.
I'm with @Padfoot
Didn't see it, you really can't sanction it. Don't care if he still has the opponent's blood dripping from his sleeve, you haven't seen the contact. From the description, it could have been a look over the shoulder, player stops and other player runs into him resulting in contact between his shoulder and his nose/mouth/whatever was bleeding
Didn't see it, you really can't sanction it. Don't care if he still has the opponent's blood dripping from his sleeve, you haven't seen the contact. From the description, it could have been a look over the shoulder, player stops and other player runs into him resulting in contact between his shoulder and his nose/mouth/whatever was bleeding
I'm with @Padfoot too.
When all is said and done, you did not see what happened. Red card for the retaliation and admit that you didn't see the elbow; it won't make you popular, but that is the right thing to do. If we start giving decisions based on what might have happened, that opens up a whole can of worms.
When all is said and done, you did not see what happened. Red card for the retaliation and admit that you didn't see the elbow; it won't make you popular, but that is the right thing to do. If we start giving decisions based on what might have happened, that opens up a whole can of worms.
By the sounds of it, it was a case of what did happen, not what might have happened.
I was thinking about this earlier on whilst the other half was rattling on about Mothers Day... If I didn't see the incident and had a very strong idea of what had happened, together with all the evidence that there is (crowd reaction, blood, retaliation etc), I'd have called the player over and said "why did you elbow him in the face" or "was there any need to elbow him in the face" etc, I'd phrase a question and allow him to inadvertently admit to what he'd done. That would be enough justification for me. It's a difficult one for me to have an opinion on as I've never been placed in this situation.
I was thinking about this earlier on whilst the other half was rattling on about Mothers Day... If I didn't see the incident and had a very strong idea of what had happened, together with all the evidence that there is (crowd reaction, blood, retaliation etc), I'd have called the player over and said "why did you elbow him in the face" or "was there any need to elbow him in the face" etc, I'd phrase a question and allow him to inadvertently admit to what he'd done. That would be enough justification for me. It's a difficult one for me to have an opinion on as I've never been placed in this situation.
deusex
RefChat Addict
Losing your match control should never be a factor in issuing a red card.
Sometimes you miss something and you have to wave match control goodbye forever.
I'd rather do that and have 4 more reds than get the original one wrong.
Forget contact, If you haven't seen the player **** his elbow and then throw it back then he could easily have cut himself with no foul commited or at best reckless play
Sometimes you miss something and you have to wave match control goodbye forever.
I'd rather do that and have 4 more reds than get the original one wrong.
Forget contact, If you haven't seen the player **** his elbow and then throw it back then he could easily have cut himself with no foul commited or at best reckless play
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Also with Padfoot. Sometimes you can see 'enough' to know what happened. But if all you see is a look and a player drop.....I don't think that's enough. Had you seen even a hint of a raised arm then that's enough on its own for VC. As it stands, the player has a defence of 'I didn't hit him'. Say it goes to a judiciary and you're asked the question of if you saw the elbow?
Sometimes we have to make a decision when we miss the point of contact - a player takes a kick but you know it's missing the ball, view is blocked by the player's body but the opponent falls over. Sometimes you have to make that decision, and it would be the same if you saw an arm starting to swing and you just missed the point of contact. Doesn't sound like even that was witnessed, so I think the referee is stuck here.
Does mean you're going to keep a very close eye on that player for the rest of the game though - not in case he does something, but for the behind-play retaliation. So you may feel the need to adjust your positioning to keep him in your peripheral vision as much as possible.
Sometimes we have to make a decision when we miss the point of contact - a player takes a kick but you know it's missing the ball, view is blocked by the player's body but the opponent falls over. Sometimes you have to make that decision, and it would be the same if you saw an arm starting to swing and you just missed the point of contact. Doesn't sound like even that was witnessed, so I think the referee is stuck here.
Does mean you're going to keep a very close eye on that player for the rest of the game though - not in case he does something, but for the behind-play retaliation. So you may feel the need to adjust your positioning to keep him in your peripheral vision as much as possible.
deusex
RefChat Addict
There is no way on Chris Foy decided to RC a Chelsea player in an EPL match if noone saw what happened.
He'd have known full well he'd have been destroyed by Sky & MOTD had he guessed wrong.
Here's what happens when you guess: You look a tit and basically screw over a team
Peter Grove
RefChat Addict
Are you sure about that? In the OP, it is stated:
From that, it sounds to me like he did see an attempt to strike.
While I agree that we can't go around guessing decisions, there's one thing that you could've done to cover your own back here. You're 99% sure that the guy's stuck his elbow in the other player's face, but you haven't actually seen the contact - so get him to admit it there and then. Dismiss the player for the retaliation first, wait for him to be on his merry way, then ask the other one "What did you do that for?". If he plays it cool and says he didn't do anything, there's nothing you can do. If he owns up - "Ah sorry ref I just lost it for a second", "He was winding me up all game" etc. etc. - then you've got him by the short and curlies, and he can't have any complaints at going for an early bath.
It was the league cup a few years back at swansea you can see him go to ask him and then hazard say something like I wanted the ball
richard ramjane
RefChat Addict
personally i think if you havent seen it, you cant give it, but i have to be honest, i have cautioned before when a striker has gone in on a keeper very late, in fact so late that i had turned my head thinking the ball was safe in the fellas hands. i heard something and turned back to see the goalie on the floor and the striker holding his hands up and saying sorry to me. yellow card and no complaint from any quarter
conversely sunday i had something different, a nothingy foul mid pitch, player stands right in front of me obscuring my view by accident and i stepped to the side to see one player aim a headbutt at the other. now i know there mustve been some squaring up but i didnt caution for AA as i hadnt actually seen it, but obv red for the VC which i did see
made for a difficult time as i admitted to all within earshot that i hadnt seen the initial reaction to the tackle but only the head movement, they spent the rest of the game (55 minutes) accusing me of having seen nothing at all !
i can see both sides of this really...
conversely sunday i had something different, a nothingy foul mid pitch, player stands right in front of me obscuring my view by accident and i stepped to the side to see one player aim a headbutt at the other. now i know there mustve been some squaring up but i didnt caution for AA as i hadnt actually seen it, but obv red for the VC which i did see
made for a difficult time as i admitted to all within earshot that i hadnt seen the initial reaction to the tackle but only the head movement, they spent the rest of the game (55 minutes) accusing me of having seen nothing at all !
i can see both sides of this really...
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
Generally helps if you read the whole thread rather than just the bits that help you make whatever point you think you want to make.
Absolutely crystal clear that the OP didnt see anything other than a player look over his shoulder.....
Unless of course you are advocating a match official lying about what they saw in order to make things easy on themselves?
Killer has just been sentenced to life in Prison.. All the evidence points to him as the killer BUT there was no CCTV footage (in most cases).
Judge "I sentence you to life in prison"
Killer "But Judge, you didn't see it happen"
Judge "Good point, heres the keys to your cuffs. You're free to go"....
Divided opinion here but if pretty much everything points to VC/SFP (regardless of whether contact was made or not), I'd go with my instinct and gut feeling every time, so long as I was 99% certain of what has happened. There are so many tell-tales to whether an incident like this actually occured; crowd reaction, player injury and just as important, player reaction. I'm not just referring to the reaction of the player that was struck, but everyone around him. Think about how both sets of players would act in this case.
I've never been placed in a situation like this so I can only predict how I'd act, but there is absolutely no way I would allow a player to stay on the pitch if he has acted in a manner that brings the game into disrepute like this. There is absolutely no place whatsoever for violence (or attempted violence), racism, sexism or anything along those lines on a football pitch.
I can see both sides to the story here; "But you didn't see it happen"...Fair point but absolutely EVERYTHING points to the fact that it did. You file your paperwork and send it to your CFA and let them be the judge on whether this guy deserves a ban and a fine.
Judge "I sentence you to life in prison"
Killer "But Judge, you didn't see it happen"
Judge "Good point, heres the keys to your cuffs. You're free to go"....
Divided opinion here but if pretty much everything points to VC/SFP (regardless of whether contact was made or not), I'd go with my instinct and gut feeling every time, so long as I was 99% certain of what has happened. There are so many tell-tales to whether an incident like this actually occured; crowd reaction, player injury and just as important, player reaction. I'm not just referring to the reaction of the player that was struck, but everyone around him. Think about how both sets of players would act in this case.
I've never been placed in a situation like this so I can only predict how I'd act, but there is absolutely no way I would allow a player to stay on the pitch if he has acted in a manner that brings the game into disrepute like this. There is absolutely no place whatsoever for violence (or attempted violence), racism, sexism or anything along those lines on a football pitch.
I can see both sides to the story here; "But you didn't see it happen"...Fair point but absolutely EVERYTHING points to the fact that it did. You file your paperwork and send it to your CFA and let them be the judge on whether this guy deserves a ban and a fine.
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