A&H

Going with your instinct

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its such a grey area and I argee with all your points and can see where your coming from

but as I was 99% certain that the v/c happened , I felt it was right to issue the red card.

I did get the decision right as there was an elbow - was told by a manager and both players

but would I have been marked done by an accessor for not punishing v/c that didn't happen which I did see
 
The Referee Store
DB said:
Killer has just been sentenced to life in Prison.. All the evidence points to him as the killer BUT there was no CCTV footage (in most cases).

Judge "I sentence you to life in prison"
Killer "But Judge, you didn't see it happen"
Judge "Good point, heres the keys to your cuffs. You're free to go"....

:hmmm:

Divided opinion here but if pretty much everything points to VC/SFP (regardless of whether contact was made or not), I'd go with my instinct and gut feeling every time, so long as I was 99% certain of what has happened. There are so many tell-tales to whether an incident like this actually occured; crowd reaction, player injury and just as important, player reaction. I'm not just referring to the reaction of the player that was struck, but everyone around him. Think about how both sets of players would act in this case.

I've never been placed in a situation like this so I can only predict how I'd act, but there is absolutely no way I would allow a player to stay on the pitch if he has acted in a manner that brings the game into disrepute like this. There is absolutely no place whatsoever for violence (or attempted violence), racism, sexism or anything along those lines on a football pitch.

I can see both sides to the story here; "But you didn't see it happen"...Fair point but absolutely EVERYTHING points to the fact that it did. You file your paperwork and send it to your CFA and let them be the judge on whether this guy deserves a ban and a fine.
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But that's the whole point....you don't know what happened....you're assuming something bad happened.
As has been pointed out earlier, the player with the injury could have simply run into the other player.......but because you didn't see, you don't know.

So you can't dismiss a player based on an assumption.....

Switch things around a bit and tell me what you would do if, following that incident after the final whistle, the injured player winks at you and says 'cheers ref, I only ran into him'?
 
Conor Murphy said:
its such a grey area and I argee with all your points and can see where your coming from

but as I was 99% certain that the v/c happened , I felt it was right to issue the red card.

I did get the decision right as there was an elbow - was told by a manager and both players

but would I have been marked done by an accessor for not punishing v/c that didn't happen which I did see
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No...it isn't a grey area at all. Stop trying to make up justification for your error.

You didn't see it, you can't give it....very very simple and basic refereeing principle.

The assessor would've asked about the incident, depending on where they were stood, they might not have seen it as well.
If you'd been honest and said that your view got blocked, there might a point about positioning if they felt you could've had a better one, but if not then fair enough.

You're not expected to give what you don't see.

If you had admitted to the assessor that you hadn't seen it, but gave the dismissal anyway because you guessed about what happened, then I would expect a slightly harsher report. I certainly wouldn't be happy with a referee who guessed at a match changing decision and my report would reflect that.
But I suspect you wouldn't have been that forthright.

What's happened has happened.....just take the experience and use to avoid making similar errors in future.
 
an error in your opinion-

v/c from both players - 2 red cards

no complaints from either team for the cards - no complaints from the managers

admission from both players and manager that there was an elbow threw

tell me in what right mind did I make a mistake - I followed the LOTG and done what was right.

if I didn't send of the player for elbowing then I would have been wrong.
 
Conor Murphy said:
an error in your opinion-

v/c from both players - 2 red cards

no complaints from either team for the cards - no complaints from the managers

admission from both players and manager that there was an elbow threw

tell me in what right mind did I make a mistake - I followed the LOTG and done what was right.

if I didn't send of the player for elbowing then I would have been wrong.
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If you had seen the elbow you would be correct.

You didn't see it. You guessed.

You can't dismiss a player for something you didn't see.

Is this simple premise sinking in yet? I'm going to guess not.

Keep deluding yourself that you did a good job, and leave the rest of us to do the job properly.

I'm done with this now.
 
Padfoot said:
But that's the whole point....you don't know what happened....you're assuming something bad happened.
As has been pointed out earlier, the player with the injury could have simply run into the other player.......but because you didn't see, you don't know.

So you can't dismiss a player based on an assumption.....

Switch things around a bit and tell me what you would do if, following that incident after the final whistle, the injured player winks at you and says 'cheers ref, I only ran into him'?
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Good point well made. I'd have issued a red card so I would send it in, adding all the details, including the players speech after the game. That allows the CFA to be judge and jury.
 
DB said:
Killer has just been sentenced to life in Prison.. All the evidence points to him as the killer BUT there was no CCTV footage (in most cases).

Judge "I sentence you to life in prison"
Killer "But Judge, you didn't see it happen"
Judge "Good point, heres the keys to your cuffs. You're free to go"....

:hmmm:

Divided opinion here but if pretty much everything points to VC/SFP (regardless of whether contact was made or not), I'd go with my instinct and gut feeling every time, so long as I was 99% certain of what has happened. There are so many tell-tales to whether an incident like this actually occured; crowd reaction, player injury and just as important, player reaction. I'm not just referring to the reaction of the player that was struck, but everyone around him. Think about how both sets of players would act in this case.

I've never been placed in a situation like this so I can only predict how I'd act, but there is absolutely no way I would allow a player to stay on the pitch if he has acted in a manner that brings the game into disrepute like this. There is absolutely no place whatsoever for violence (or attempted violence), racism, sexism or anything along those lines on a football pitch.

I can see both sides to the story here; "But you didn't see it happen"...Fair point but absolutely EVERYTHING points to the fact that it did. You file your paperwork and send it to your CFA and let them be the judge on whether this guy deserves a ban and a fine.
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Fair enough. Do you say in your report that you did not see the incident? If so, it would get binned on appeal.
 
Absolutely, of course you would. But again, that decision to uphold a ban/fine isnt ours to make (thankfully). You have to remember though, this sort of instance is really only going to happen at grassroots games where NAR's aren't present to be another set of eyes and another reporter during that process afterwards.

It's our prerogative to ensure good order is maintained on the field, how you enforce that when you are in the middle is completely up to you... For me, I want to protect myself, protect the players and ensure the game is played in accordance with the LOTG. Deal with the accidents as they happen and let the CFA decide on the action to take.
 
DB said:
Absolutely, of course you would. But again, that decision to uphold a ban/fine isnt ours to make (thankfully). You have to remember though, this sort of instance is really only going to happen at grassroots games where NAR's aren't present to be another set of eyes and another reporter during that process afterwards.

It's our prerogative to ensure good order is maintained on the field, how you enforce that when you are in the middle is completely up to you... For me, I want to protect myself, protect the players and ensure the game is played in accordance with the LOTG. Deal with the accidents as they happen and let the CFA decide on the action to take.
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Not only would this appeal be binned you would have your County RDO on the phone saying what the hell are you doing and make sure it doesn't happen again with a nice big black mark against your name. This is black and white not grey, saw it red card, didn't no red card......simples!!
 
Unbelievable. I'm so glad you lot aren't judges/solicitors or in that field. This country would be a very dangerous place with people like you at the helm of the juridical system!

One says something and then everyone jumps on the bandwagon. I'm also rather glad some of the people on this forum do not officiate in Cornwall. I'd genuinely be worried for my safety on that field when i play!
 
Conor Murphy said:
its baffling me how some of you guys are promoting v/c on the field of play - sort it out
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Conor, in what way has anybody promoted VC?? We are just pointing out that you can only give what you see, whether that is an offside, hand ball, ball over the line or in this case an elbow. You do not guess that is the point. That is in no way, shape or form promoting VC.
 
DB said:
Unbelievable. I'm so glad you lot aren't judges/solicitors or in that field. This country would be a very dangerous place with people like you at the helm of the juridical system!

One says something and then everyone jumps on the bandwagon. I'm also rather glad some of the people on this forum do not officiate in Cornwall. I'd genuinely be worried for my safety on that field when i play!
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You are quite right we are not judges or solicitors. A judge or a solicitor will give decisions based on statements and other peoples portrayal of an incident not what he/she has or hasn't seen.

@Conor Murphy & @DB raise this exact point at your next RA meeting and gauge the reaction.
 
we have to make a decision based on certain events - we must take all factors into consideration..

all accounts pointed towards a red card - I don't know what is hard to understand

iv seen refs give red cards based on the injury and stub marks on a persons leg before - if them stud marks hadnt of been there would it have been a red card??

there was v/c on the pitch but you guys want to give me to give him a warming??

Im not by anyway saying that if I don't see something but I think I know what happened its a auto red - im trying to say on this occasion I was 99.9% sure I know what happened and I could back the red card up. which is my eyes is correct as both players were both guilty of v/c -

maybe in cornwall you have to knock the guy out before you get a red

Moderator edit: Please use the edit function, rather than posting again
 
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Flabbergasted!

Conor, I'm with you here, as you've probably gathered. I do not care whether I miss a split second where contact was made, if I saw the build up and the aftermath and I applied intelligence to the situation to come to the conclusion that an assault has just taken place. I'd be binning the player every time.

If it gets thrown out by the CFA, they are failing you.

A bandwagon has been placed on this thread with nice comfy seats, we have the crappy old seats... Hence why the bandwagon is becoming heavily populated. Obviously the likes of me and you are being heavily criticised, so no-one in their right mind would side with us publically!
 
We are going round in circles here. To address your last point, any referee that gives a red card based on injury is also WRONG unless of course he saw the incident and deemed it a red card offence. There was VC on the pitch but unfortunately you didn't see it so a red card is again wrong. Just like if the ball crossed the line but you were not in a position to see it, it should have been a goal but you didn't see it so you cannot give it.

@DB I am also flabbergasted that you are still standing firm on this.
 
Had an incident on Monday night - two players tussling for the ball, both ended up on the floor - in a tangle., nothing more, ref gave fk to defender, attacker suddenly shouts 'He bit me ref" and showed ref "bite mark" on his arm.

Ref quite rightly, we all agreed afterwards, was correct to take no action - she didn't see bite so couldn't act.

Do we all agree on THAT one?
 
PinnerPaul said:
Had an incident on Monday night - two players tussling for the ball, both ended up on the floor - in a tangle., nothing more, ref gave fk to defender, attacker suddenly shouts 'He bit me ref" and showed ref "bite mark" on his arm.

Ref quite rightly, we all agreed afterwards, was correct to take no action - she didn't see bite so couldn't act.

Do we all agree on THAT one?
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Yes Paul 100% correct!!
 
DB glad you have common sense - and not sitting behind a rule book-

that last one is a tough one - would the player have bitten himself to get the opponent sent off??

for me this is very unlikely that someone would bit themselves
 
Yes Paul, the player could have bit himself. Much more unlikely that he will smack himself in the mouth!

Also, you state the players were in a tangle, obscured from everyones view I can imagine. So, correct decision in my eyes.
 
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