A&H

No VAR but a big screen..

Peter Grove said:
As I recall, it was rumoured that he'd seen it on a pitchside monitor, but as far as I'm aware there was absolutely no evidence offered by anyone to back up the rumour (and there were plenty of people by the side of the pitch in the technical areas, in a position to see what the 4th official was doing). Apart from that, it was totally against the principles of refereeing in use at the time and for me it would be unthinkable that officials in the biggest game in the football calendar (and the biggest game of their careers) would have even considered doing it.

According to the statements given by the match officials, "The incident was directly observed (ie, without the use of a monitor) by fourth official Luis Medina Cantalejo from his position at the pitchside, who informed the referee and his assistants through the communications system."

Or, in referee Hector Elizondo's words, "Luis Medina Cantalejo’s voice [the fourth official] appears in my headset, and he says, “Horacio, Horacio, I saw it,” he says to me. “A really violent headbutt by Zidane on Materazzi, right in the chest.”
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There's a documentary on YT, 4th official says he say it on a monitor, and was confirmed none of the officials viewed it real life.
 
The Referee Store
zarathustra said:
Are suggesting they lied and said they saw something they didn't?

It's hard to tell from watching it on TV when the replay was shown on the big screen, but it I think it was after he'd spoken to the AR and awarded the goal.

I don't think there's anyway that either the red or AR could have seen the hand ball, even the commentators at the time thought there might have been an offside player, and it wasn't until they'd gone through replays from various angles that they saw the hand ball.

Oliver was thrown under the bus by those replays, everyone in the stadium saw it was a handball, but he can't change his decision based on the big screen.
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Only saw MOTD highlights and 'timeline' not clear on there. Agree if they didn't see something then can't give it, BUT must have been some element of doubt or else why go to AR - especially with comms?
 
PinnerPaul said:
Only saw MOTD highlights and 'timeline' not clear on there. Agree if they didn't see something then can't give it, BUT must have been some element of doubt or else why go to AR - especially with comms?
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Not sure, maybe he saw something but didn't get a good view so checked with the AR

I imagine going over to the AR is more to show he is discussing it with him, so everyone knows what is going on.

If neither saw anything clearly enough to be confident an offence had been committed there's little they can do
 
It looked to me like they only put it on the screen as the players were waiting to kick off, by which point it was too late. If they changed their mind at that point it would be obvious they had used what was on the screen.
 
es1 said:
He was behind the keeper if I recall...will try dig it out on youtube

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I don't know how long after the goal the replay was shown, but surely the ref and AR could have come up with something? AR could've pleaded ignorance that Tevez touched the ball? "Oh he DID touch it? It was offside then ref!"
 
JH said:
I don't know how long after the goal the replay was shown, but surely the ref and AR could have come up with something? AR could've pleaded ignorance that Tevez touched the ball? "Oh he DID touch it? It was offside then ref!"
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With the ref telling everyone to go away, and he stepped off the field of play to speak to AR, how many joined him off the pitch? Few cards could have been given and this would have dispersed the crowd surely.
 
ladbroke8745 said:
With the ref telling everyone to go away, and he stepped off the field of play to speak to AR, how many joined him off the pitch? Few cards could have been given and this would have dispersed the crowd surely.
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I agree, but when they knew they were wrong, I doubt they wanted to add more flames to the fire if you will.
 
ijamesmac said:
There's a documentary on YT, 4th official says he say it on a monitor, and was confirmed none of the officials viewed it real life.
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Well, if true, that would contradict everything I've ever read about this incident and I've read quite a bit about it. Also I've looked and I can't find anything either on YouTube or elsewhere on the internet, other than numerous interviews with Hector Elizondo and Luis Medina Cantalejo which either make no mention of the 4th official seeing it on a monitor or specifically deny it. I did find an interview where Elizondo is supposed to have said that Medina told him, "You won't believe it when you see it on the video," but that's not the same as saying he himself saw it on a monitor.

Do you have a link to this YouTube video?

I should perhaps mention, just because there's a documentary on YouTube doesn't make it true.

The clearest account of this is that I could find is an interview given by Elizondo in 2013 where he is asked whether Medina saw it on a pitchside monitor. Here's his reply:
At every point, the [fourth] referee was standing on the halfway line. The one who started this complaint, saying that he saw it on the video was [Raymond] Domenech, the France manager. Why? Well... at World Cup matches, between the two benches, there’s a monitor of sorts. It’s between the two banks, but set back from the pitch. That is to say, the fourth official has to walk about 10m to see that monitor and then come back to pitchside. If the fourth official had done that, it would have been easy for anyone to spot. And the fourth official was always on the halfway line. When I spoke to Luis, I asked how he’d seen it, to be sure. That is, going back to the game, when he tells me, “I saw it, I saw a headbutt,” right there and then. After the match I asked him again, whether he’d seen it on the monitor or on the field of play, and he told me, “No, I saw it on the pitch. The monitor didn’t come into it.”
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2013 Interview with Hector Elizondo
 
Must be a horrible feeling for the referee, stood in a stadium of 20 thousand plus fans having an error played in front of all of you on the big screen and knowing you can do nothing about it.

Fair play to them for sticking to their guns though, it can't have been easy.
 
Peter Grove said:
Well, if true, that would contradict everything I've ever read about this incident and I've read quite a bit about it. Also I've looked and I can't find anything either on YouTube or elsewhere on the internet, other than numerous interviews with Hector Elizondo and Luis Medina Cantalejo which either make no mention of the 4th official seeing it on a monitor or specifically deny it. I did find an interview where Elizondo is supposed to have said that Medina told him, "You won't believe it when you see it on the video," but that's not the same as saying he himself saw it on a monitor.

Do you have a link to this YouTube video?

I should perhaps mention, just because there's a documentary on YouTube doesn't make it true.

The clearest account of this is that I could find is an interview given by Elizondo in 2013 where he is asked whether Medina saw it on a pitchside monitor. Here's his reply:


2013 Interview with Hector Elizondo
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The referee was informed of the incident over comms, he then went to his assistant and pretended that his assistant was informing him about it, to make a clear signal that it had been seen.
 
JH said:
The referee was informed of the incident over comms, he then went to his assistant and pretended that his assistant was informing him about it, to make a clear signal that it had been seen.
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Yes, as he explains in the interview I linked to in my earlier post. Doesn't change the fact that he categorically rules out the idea that the 4th official saw it on a monitor.
 
I think that it should be all or nothing. If grounds cannot accommodate VAR then it should not be used anywhere in the FA Cup, otherwise clubs are at a disadvantage or advantage whichever way you look at it.
 
Cheshire Ref said:
I think that it should be all or nothing. If grounds cannot accommodate VAR then it should not be used anywhere in the FA Cup, otherwise clubs are at a disadvantage or advantage whichever way you look at it.
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It needs testing somehow!
 
JH said:
It needs testing somehow!
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Exactly, how do you test it if it has to be used in all games in the competition? That means you can't use it in the cups as you even get lower league clubs as late as the semi-finals, friendlies are pointless as nothing controversial usually happens, so you are looking at testing it in the Premier League. Hardly ideal ..!

FA Cup makes sense, and I say that as a supporter of one of the two teams that got properly stitched up by it this weekend. If VAR was at The Den Everton might still be in the cup, if VAR wasn't at Stamford Bridge Wednesday might still be in it (although I do accept the latter is probably unlikely .. :))
 
Season of epl reserves playing at home ground???

It is a bit perverse that had Millwall v Everton been Everton v Millwall I think its a fair shout the handball goal would have been disallowed
 
Ciley Myrus said:
Season of epl reserves playing at home ground???

It is a bit perverse that had Millwall v Everton been Everton v Millwall I think its a fair shout the handball goal would have been disallowed
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Reserves isn't competitive, I've refereed those games and they are a walk in the park. Plus they wouldn't want to put top level referees on these games especially not needing such a big team to accommodate VAR.

Yes, had it been Everton vs Millwall a free kick would have been given, just as had it been Sheff Wed vs Chelsea the penalty would have stood. Just the way it is though, and as yet I haven't seen a viable alternative as to how they could test VAR in a competitive environment.
 
Imagine if a team had a screen up on a Sunday league game and we're reviewing the reasons why all of us aren't in the Prem!!!! :(
 
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