A&H

Poor second 4w-3w observation

OnlyUseMeWhistle

OnlyUseMeWhistle

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Level 4W Referee
Had a bit of a rough one with observation today.

4w-3w so 5-4 equivalent.

Sunday league match on a park pitch, so already I can’t really score much for controlling benches etc because it’s just a line of 30-40 people across both teams.

The game was called off and then back on so I was a bit frazzled and missed different coloured undershirts (basic I know, kicked myself enough over it).

Actually had a good game with two correct KMIs but that basic stuff plus not being able to score well in some categories because of the class of match means it’s probably a promotion stopper (one left to go, one previous mark of 72.1).

Bit frustrated really because it’s all I had left to cover, the observer is kindly going to have a word with the RDO about the sort of match that I need to have observers on for this promotion (I.e. actual technical areas etc).

More of a vent than anything else but I know I won’t be alone with this so hope it helps others feel less like they’re alone in having these things happen!
 
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OnlyUseMeWhistle said:
Had a bit of a rough one with observation today.

4w-3w so 5-4 equivalent.

Sunday league match on a park pitch, so already I can’t really score much for controlling benches etc because it’s just a line of 30-40 people across both teams.

The game was called off and then back on so I was a bit frazzled and missed different coloured undershirts (basic I know, kicked myself enough over it).

Actually had a good game with two correct KMIs but that basic stuff plus not being able to score well in some categories because of the class of match means it’s probably a promotion stopper (one left to go, one previous mark of 72.1).

Bit frustrated really because it’s all I had left to cover, the observer is kindly going to have a word with the RDO about the sort of match that I need to have observers on for this promotion (I.e. actual technical areas etc).

More of a vent than anything else but I know I won’t be alone with this so hope it helps others feel less like they’re alone in having these things happen!
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It's a shame that pedantic observations about undershorts are deemed to make you a lesser-ability referee.

I hope they find a game where you can get the right score for promotion.
 
Kent Ref said:
It's a shame that pedantic observations about undershorts are deemed to make you a lesser-ability referee.

I hope they find a game where you can get the right score for promotion.
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Tbf we are talking women’s national league and full rounds of the FA cup being an option here. The little laws matter just as much so I get it. It’s part of the scoring and he had to be fair and I respect that rather than letting me get a 70 or 68 to be nice.

I’m hoping so too, I’ve got at least one more chance depending on how low this score ends up.
 
OnlyUseMeWhistle said:
Had a bit of a rough one with observation today.

4w-3w so 5-4 equivalent.

Sunday league match on a park pitch, so already I can’t really score much for controlling benches etc because it’s just a line of 30-40 people across both teams.

The game was called off and then back on so I was a bit frazzled and missed different coloured undershirts (basic I know, kicked myself enough over it).

Actually had a good game with two correct KMIs but that basic stuff plus not being able to score well in some categories because of the class of match means it’s probably a promotion stopper (one left to go, one previous mark of 72.1).

Bit frustrated really because it’s all I had left to cover, the observer is kindly going to have a word with the RDO about the sort of match that I need to have observers on for this promotion (I.e. actual technical areas etc).

More of a vent than anything else but I know I won’t be alone with this so hope it helps others feel less like they’re alone in having these things happen!
Click to expand...
4W to 3W isn't the equivalent of 5 to 4, it is the same as 7/6 to 5. 3W to 2W is the equivalent of 5 to 4.

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Kent Ref said:
It's a shame that pedantic observations about undershorts are deemed to make you a lesser-ability referee.

I hope they find a game where you can get the right score for promotion.
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I wouldn't say it is pedantic. A 3W referee will be officiating in the 3rd tier of women's football, that is senior football where they will be refereeing in front of crowds at proper grounds. So they need to be able to demonstrate that they can operate at that level, and that includes ensuring all laws are properly applied, including that around kit.

It is similar to the men's pathway, many observers at 7 to 6 and 6 to 5 are a lot more relaxed about under shirts / shorts, but once the candidates they are observing get to 5 to 4 they expect them to deal with it as they certainly would be expected to at the next level.
 
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OnlyUseMeWhistle said:
Had a bit of a rough one with observation today.

4w-3w so 5-4 equivalent.

Sunday league match on a park pitch, so already I can’t really score much for controlling benches etc because it’s just a line of 30-40 people across both teams.

The game was called off and then back on so I was a bit frazzled and missed different coloured undershirts (basic I know, kicked myself enough over it).

Actually had a good game with two correct KMIs but that basic stuff plus not being able to score well in some categories because of the class of match means it’s probably a promotion stopper (one left to go, one previous mark of 72.1).

Bit frustrated really because it’s all I had left to cover, the observer is kindly going to have a word with the RDO about the sort of match that I need to have observers on for this promotion (I.e. actual technical areas etc).

More of a vent than anything else but I know I won’t be alone with this so hope it helps others feel less like they’re alone in having these things happen!
Click to expand...
Unless I’m mistaken, you only need to average 70 to get your promotion no?

If you’ve had a 72.1, then you can afford a 68 here theoretically?
I can’t see how undershirts and ‘not controlling technical areas’ can pull you down to a 68, especially if you got 2 correct KMIs

Maybe you’ll be pleasantly surprised when the mark comes through!
 
RefereeX said:
Unless I’m mistaken, you only need to average 70 to get your promotion no?

If you’ve had a 72.1, then you can afford a 68 here theoretically?
I can’t see how undershirts and ‘not controlling technical areas’ can pull you down to a 68, especially if you got 2 correct KMIs

Maybe you’ll be pleasantly surprised when the mark comes through!
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Yeah you’re right on the mark front, there’s some other bits that I also couldn’t get many marks for because of the nature of the game.

It was a total bog as well, which dragged me really central because it was a slog to get from end to end. Just lots of little things that in a game that you’d expect a 5-4 observation to take place on, I’d have an easier time to get right (more time to prepare before the game, better pitch, actual infrastructure around the pitch)
 
RefereeX said:
Unless I’m mistaken, you only need to average 70 to get your promotion no?

If you’ve had a 72.1, then you can afford a 68 here theoretically?
I can’t see how undershirts and ‘not controlling technical areas’ can pull you down to a 68, especially if you got 2 correct KMIs

Maybe you’ll be pleasantly surprised when the mark comes through!
Click to expand...
70 is the minimum criteria.

It doesn't guarantee promotion. If you average 70 and 3 referees get a higher average and the FA only need 3, you could miss out

I know of several examples where referees have met minimum criteria and then been ranked outside numbers required (I was one of them in my 1st 5-4. Ironically my average was higher than the one I was promoted with, availability was my issue).
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JamesL said:
70 is the minimum criteria.

It doesn't guarantee promotion. If you average 70 and 3 referees get a higher average and the FA only need 3, you could miss out

I know of several examples where referees have met minimum criteria and then been ranked outside numbers required (I was one of them in my 1st 5-4. Ironically my average was higher than the one I was promoted with, availability was my issue).
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Genuinely had no idea this was the case. I've never heard of anyone in my county achieving the criteria for 5-4 or 4w-3w and not receiving it (although that doesn't mean it hasn't happened).

I've no idea how I've got to L3 knowing so little about the various promotion schemes and how they work etc. 😆
 
RefereeX said:
Genuinely had no idea this was the case. I've never heard of anyone in my county achieving the criteria for 5-4 or 4w-3w and not receiving it (although that doesn't mean it hasn't happened).

I've no idea how I've got to L3 knowing so little about the various promotion schemes and how they work etc. 😆
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With such a current proliferation of L4s country wide, the FA have had to raise the bar somewhat this season. I'd be surprised to see anybody averaging below 71 getting the nod from 5-4 this season ...
 
Kes said:
With such a current proliferation of L4s country wide, the FA have had to raise the bar somewhat this season. I'd be surprised to see anybody averaging below 71 getting the nod from 5-4 this season ...
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Agree! This is where the FA can truly control the numbers operating at L4 and above. Given how quickly new starters can get to this gateway it is going to become a much more competitive (and a challenge for county FAs to administer) world at L5. Wouldn't be surprised if CFAs limited number of applicants, with a minimum criteria, to cope with demand in some areas if it does become as demanding as it could do.
I expect it to become even more difficult, and therefore a greater achievement to get to L4 within the next couple of years.
 
JamesL said:
I expect it to become even more difficult, and therefore a greater achievement to get to L4 within the next couple of years.
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Yep. Provided of course that Observers don't "compensate" for that by upgrading/tweaking reports here and there. ;)

In any event, if the promotion criteria has changed as I believe it now has to ensure that with an average of 70, your name still goes into the County FA hat, but only the best say, 5% of those (based on actual average mark) are actually packaged off to the FA for decision then it'll still come down to performance and merit I guess ...
 
Well the County FA already have to score each candidate on Administration, Communication and Suitability.
They will also compile your observation marks.
The promotion pack also states the games refereed will be strengthened if feeder league (step 7) and acted as an AR in Fa Comps / step 5/6.

How the county Fa score you on the administration communication and suitability is the interesting one for me…
 
Ste500 said:
Well the County FA already have to score each candidate on Administration, Communication and Suitability.
They will also compile your observation marks.
The promotion pack also states the games refereed will be strengthened if feeder league (step 7) and acted as an AR in Fa Comps / step 5/6.

How the county Fa score you on the administration communication and suitability is the interesting one for me…
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There are people on here who will know the answer to that better than I do.
My guess is that it'd be easier for them to identify a weakness in any of those 3 headings rather than a strength so moreover, it's decent Observer Marks that'll determine whether or not you get "sent up".
 
Ste500 said:
How the county Fa score you on the administration communication and suitability is the interesting one for me…
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That is easy, some people are good referees but appalling at administration. Might be they don't close dates and keep kicking back county cup appointments, are regularly late submitting misconduct on WGS, or are late submitting match reports. The FA aren't going to be happy if a CFA nominates such a person and they then find out that they are causing a lot of reappointments and work chasing them, so they will put it on the form and let the FA make the decision armed with the knowledge.

Likewise they might have been closed every Saturday for the past two seasons, clearly that affects their suitability as a requirement of going for L4 is that you are frequently available on Saturdays. It used to be that you could just not nominate them at all, but I believe the FA now require everyone that meets the criteria to be nominated.
 
RustyRef said:
That is easy, some people are good referees but appalling at administration. Might be they don't close dates and keep kicking back county cup appointments, are regularly late submitting misconduct on WGS, or are late submitting match reports. The FA aren't going to be happy if a CFA nominates such a person and they then find out that they are causing a lot of reappointments and work chasing them, so they will put it on the form and let the FA make the decision armed with the knowledge.

Likewise they might have been closed every Saturday for the past two seasons, clearly that affects their suitability as a requirement of going for L4 is that you are frequently available on Saturdays. It used to be that you could just not nominate them at all, but I believe the FA now require everyone that meets the criteria to be nominated.
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Not sure how my CFA would judge availability given the chaotic nature of closing/opening dates at grassroots in my county.
 
OnlyUseMeWhistle said:
Not sure how my CFA would judge availability given the chaotic nature of closing/opening dates at grassroots in my county.
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County Cup games are a thing. In theory, as well as opening/closing dates for whatever leagues you do, you should also be closing dates with County FA for any games (such as county cups) that they appoint for.

You're right to say that their knowledge of your availability for grassroots leagues can be a bit hit-and-miss - depending on how your CFA runs things, all my availability goes through Central Appointments, which has up and down sides. But without that, it only makes any issues with county games stand out even more, as having to come off one of those will be one negative data point in a much smaller pool of positive interactions.
 
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