Padfoot
The Persecuted One
And what merits does homophobic abuse have that would not warrant a red card?
The use of homophobic language
- Thread starter Trip
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You call the phrase in the OP abuse? I certainly couldn't, not without some CONTEXT!
If I had been there I may have viewed it a OFFINABUS, but I have to take the view that Sheffield's Finest dealt with it the way he thought fit.
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
Errr....the context is quite apparent in the OP......
The fact that you think it's simply a question of sending somebody off is a good illustration of the gap between the training you have been given and the expectations the FA apparently has of your behaviour following a report of homophobic abuse. According to the FA website anyone who hears any term of homophobic abuse should report it to the referee. Even if the referee hasn't seen or heard anything he or she is supposed to report it. If the abuse comes from the spectators the referee is still supposed to deal with it, and report it.
To whom should the referee report these incidents and using what reporting mechanism? How should the referee deal with reports of homophobic language among the spectators? What should we say to the people reporting this abuse to assure them that action will be taken?
No, that's not what I mean, although an update on what is acceptable language would probably be helpful every so often.
What I mean is that the FA have material on their website that leads players to believe that if they tell a referee that they have heard a homophobic term used on or near the pitch that they can report that fact to the referee, and the referee will know that they should report the incident to the FA, even if they haven't heard it and even if it came from a spectator.
There are still referees in this thread arguing over whether 'stop crying like a queer' constitutes a red card. I think it's safe to assume that very few referees have received the training the FA is referring to.
Unfortunately at the top table of disciplinary we are dealing with Lawyer Speak, they wouldn't ever publish something that hasn't been chewed over by layers of highly qualified professional football and non football people.
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
Do you really need to be spoon fed the mechanism for reporting anything misconduct related? Or how to inform the person reporting the abuse what you will be doing?
The FA expect you to report the abuse, or allegation of abuse......and to inform the person reporting it to you of what you will be doing.
Just more hiding behind an excuse to avoid doing the job properly......."oh i haven't been trained so I can't deal with this...." or "I haven't been trained so I can't recognise that someone being called a queer is homophobic...."
Thanks for saving me the trouble of posting this. Avoidance of responsibility by any means possible by some on this thread. Just do your jobs. Don't try to be popular. if you want to be popular, go find another hobby.
That is a totally unjustified comment. I have not made any excuses at all: I got it wrong and said so. Have you actually been reading my posts?
The FA say that referees have been trained to deal with reports of homophobic abuse. A significant number of referees in this thread have stated that they would not red card a player for calling an opponent 'queer' if there is no visible adverse reaction. Still think nobody needs training? Maybe you were born a perfect referee. Other people need to be taught.
I am at a total loss to understand what I have said that could possibly be interpreted as avoiding responsibility. This was a very useful thread which taught me a lot, but which has somehow descended into finger-pointing.
You have stated that you needed more training. You received the same training as all other new referees receive including the offences which constitute a dismissal and the action required when you dismiss. They manage to do that. This forum is not the place for training. The users provide advice; sometimes correct, sometimes incorrect. If you want training, you need to speak to a FA tutor (hi there!) or your RDO.
With regard to your comments about avoiding responsibility, were you named? You were not, but it seems you doth protest too much. So if the cap fits...
You raised this issue and now you don't seem to like the feedback given. No one's pointing fingers but you. I'm done on this thread.
/dropmic
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mikedn
Referee/Mentor
Training ? Not really needed read my original post, be proactive and do what i did....(to repeat) i emailed my disciplinary secretary and gave her the scenario of " crying like a queer" and i was told it was a red card offence.... i cannot say what other F.A.'s stance would be on said same question, but give it a try and ask... save all this unnecessary waffle........
No, apparently they don't. The referees on this forum do not agree on whether the use of the term 'queer' justifies a red card. Some say it does, others say it doesn't. (I don't blame them for this - I was unsure too.)
The FA's stance on this is absolutely clear: it's a red card (and a longer ban than normal).
I didn't say I needed more training. I said that the FA's statement that referees have been trained on this issue is clearly wrong because otherwise there wouldn't be such disagreement on the basic question of whether a homophobic term constitutes OFFINABUS.
What you did was admirable. Your initial response was wrong, you asked for clarification from your RDO and changed your mind on the basis of new information. In your case more training might not be necessary.
But most referees don't read this forum and have not been prompted to question their view on the issue by this thread. Some of them will get it right anyway. Good for them. But some of them won't, and those referees need training - not for the benefit of those referees but for the benefit of LGBT players.
zarathustra
RefChat Addict
When I did my course last year this was only briefly mentioned, and that was just to say that it is a red.
I think that one issue with this is that because there isn't (or wasnt) much if any emphasis placed on the use of homophobic remarks during the course that many of the people on it will still be applying their personal beliefs about what is and isn't offensive when dealing with these types of remarks.
An example might be a younger ref who is used to hearing homophobic remarks used as "banter" in the play ground etc who then ignores similar remarks on a Sunday morning.
Perhaps some form of "equality and diversity" training might be useful as part of the course, or as a separate event similar to the safe guarding children etc.
I think that one issue with this is that because there isn't (or wasnt) much if any emphasis placed on the use of homophobic remarks during the course that many of the people on it will still be applying their personal beliefs about what is and isn't offensive when dealing with these types of remarks.
An example might be a younger ref who is used to hearing homophobic remarks used as "banter" in the play ground etc who then ignores similar remarks on a Sunday morning.
Perhaps some form of "equality and diversity" training might be useful as part of the course, or as a separate event similar to the safe guarding children etc.
I've been away for the weekend, so apologies for highlighting something quite a few pages back.
The video someone posted a few pages back would suggest to any player who saw it that if they heard homophobic/racist/sexist comments during a match, they could report it to the referee, who would then report it to the local FA, who would then punish the offending club.
Does this match up with what anyone here was trained to do? If a player comes up to me in a match and goes "he said x" (where x is anything that might come under OFFINABUS, including but not limited to homophobic/racist/sexist comments) and I had heard nothing, my response would automatically be along the lines of "I'll keep an eye on them, but I can't punish something I don't see or hear". "You can only give what you see" is a frequently used mantra on this forum when it comes to giving cards for foul tackles and off the ball incidents, and I have absolutely never been told to treat this type of accusation differently.
If this isn't the case, then yeah, there's a pretty big hole in my training!
ALSO, without wanting to make a long post longer, what is the appropriate action if you do want to report a player complaint? Surely a misconduct report isn't appropriate if you didn't hear anything and can't later be called on as a witness? And an email to county seems far too informal for such a serious complaint?
The video someone posted a few pages back would suggest to any player who saw it that if they heard homophobic/racist/sexist comments during a match, they could report it to the referee, who would then report it to the local FA, who would then punish the offending club.
Does this match up with what anyone here was trained to do? If a player comes up to me in a match and goes "he said x" (where x is anything that might come under OFFINABUS, including but not limited to homophobic/racist/sexist comments) and I had heard nothing, my response would automatically be along the lines of "I'll keep an eye on them, but I can't punish something I don't see or hear". "You can only give what you see" is a frequently used mantra on this forum when it comes to giving cards for foul tackles and off the ball incidents, and I have absolutely never been told to treat this type of accusation differently.
If this isn't the case, then yeah, there's a pretty big hole in my training!
ALSO, without wanting to make a long post longer, what is the appropriate action if you do want to report a player complaint? Surely a misconduct report isn't appropriate if you didn't hear anything and can't later be called on as a witness? And an email to county seems far too informal for such a serious complaint?
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This is a good question. I don't know the answer. I imagine that it won't be too hard to find out, presumably we can just ask our RDO. But I'm glad somebody else has confessed they are not sure; when I asked the same question the first response was
So when you report something you didn't hear, what if the person saying it is making it up, (people do tell porkies sometimes).... One will say he said something and one will say he didn't..... I'd say thats probably not enough evidence to throw the book at anybody...All a complete waste of time and energy...I'm all for justified suspensions but i'm struggling to get my head around hearsay!!!
@GraemeS http://www.thefa.com/news/2016/Sep/21/anti-discrimination
@Sheffields Finest you're not reporting fact that you heard something or not, you are reporting the fact that something was said. It is not your job to play judge, but you have a responsibility to report any kind of discrimination.
Kick It Out is one place where I have reported Racism before as a referee and a player.
@Sheffields Finest you're not reporting fact that you heard something or not, you are reporting the fact that something was said. It is not your job to play judge, but you have a responsibility to report any kind of discrimination.
Kick It Out is one place where I have reported Racism before as a referee and a player.
That's an interesting resource and I already know more about this than I did before having seen that page, but I have to suggest it still leaves not far off the same gap in my knowledge. The videos and the documentation tell players and supporters that they can bring these matters to the referee - but there's nothing telling the referee how to react, nothing telling me that I should be recording this information and reporting it, and nothing telling me how to regain my match control having accepted a players word as truth.
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