A&H

The use of homophobic language

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I respect all opinions, I've one the weekend that if you go by this post on the FB League Wall it should be fun....

Need a ref for Saturday... otherwise Dale Vella (Player) will be doing it. A good one preferably as I presume the lot we're playing will be dirty cheating whinging nobbers considering where most of them played last year X
 
The Referee Store
Very sensible advice here, I've picked one line from the link below...

Law 12 (Fouls and Misconduct) does not include a definitive listing of what constitutes offensive or insulting or abusive language; or dissent. Some of the words in the Bad Language Mapping image above, are 'foul language'; words; but when they are used as part of conversation on the field of play, they are not necessarily illegal as far as the Laws are concerned. They only become illegal, if the context in which they are being used, becomes 'offensive, insulting or abusive' in any way. This is an important concept for Referees to grasp. It is possible for even the most vilest of swear words to be vocally delivered in a such a way as not to seem offensive. Conversely, it is also possible for a non-offensive word to be vocally delivered in such a way as to seem offensive! Therefore, Referees need to get away from the concept that such words as, "F***ing hell", or "boll**ks" are always going to be punished with a red card.

http://www.kenaston.org/the-referee/Bad-Language-Mapping.htm
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Very sensible advice here, I've picked one line from the link below...

Law 12 (Fouls and Misconduct) does not include a definitive listing of what constitutes offensive or insulting or abusive language; or dissent. Some of the words in the Bad Language Mapping image above, are 'foul language'; words; but when they are used as part of conversation on the field of play, they are not necessarily illegal as far as the Laws are concerned. They only become illegal, if the context in which they are being used, becomes 'offensive, insulting or abusive' in any way. This is an important concept for Referees to grasp. It is possible for even the most vilest of swear words to be vocally delivered in a such a way as not to seem offensive. Conversely, it is also possible for a non-offensive word to be vocally delivered in such a way as to seem offensive! Therefore, Referees need to get away from the concept that such words as, "F***ing hell", or "boll**ks" are always going to be punished with a red card.

http://www.kenaston.org/the-referee/Bad-Language-Mapping.htm
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This is really good stuff. When there is general swearing then different referees have different tolerance levels.
But... you knew I had a but coming...

Homophobia, racism, misogyny is different.

You can choose how you respond to "eff this" "eff that" "eff you all" "oh eff" "c***z" "w***erzx" etc etc. You, we can decide in the context of the game, circumstances, delivery, direction etc etc.

But...
"hom" "shirt lifter" "queer" "fag" "pansy" "poof"
"******" "coon" "monkey" "darkie" "packie" "terrorist" "make me a kebab"
"effing girl"
...I could go on...
These are instant reds.
After Trump this might change... but right now... there is zero tolerance and we should/must deal with it.

(Apologies for the language but I think this is very positive to discuss)
 
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santa sangria said:
This is really good stuff. When there is general swearing then different referees have different tolerance levels.
But... you knew I had a but coming...

Homophobia, racism, misogyny is different.

You can choose how you respond to "eff this" "eff that" "eff you all" "oh eff" "c***z" "w***erzx" etc etc. You, we can decide in the context of the game, circumstances, delivery, direction etc etc.

But...
"hom" "shirt lifter" "queer" "fag" "pansy" "poof"
"******" "coon" "monkey" "darkie" "packie" "terrorist" "make me a kebab"
"effing girl"
...I could go on...
These are instant reds.
After Trump this might change... but right now... there is zero tolerance and we should/must deal with it.

(Apologies for the language but I think this is very positive to discuss)
Click to expand...

Most of those things in isolation are very bad things to say and certainly can be reds most of the time, however there is no specific Law that says there is a zero tolerance to anything.

The piece is very articulate in asking referees to consider each case very carefully before sending someone off.
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Most of those things in isolation are very bad things to say and certainly can be reds most of the time, however there is no specific Law that says there is a zero tolerance to anything.
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If you are in the UK then there is FA guidance as mentioned earlier in this thread.
A quick Google shows this (there is probably more recent stuff out there) which includes:
"The FA will apply sanctions for homophobic abuse, which is outlawed under Law 12 of the Laws of the Game. It is a red card offence and referees are trained to manage situations where it arises."

That seems very clear to me. Have you had different guidance?
 
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We all agree that the language quoted above by San Sag is wrong and has no place on a football field, should you hear such language that you as a referee feel ticks that box of OFFINABUS then no one should be in any doubt that a red card should follow, my point was that for the comments I heard, no-one was offended, no-one was insulted, no-one was abused, had I felt they had been I would have sent him off...

FIFA are never going to send out any document condoning anything bad, it will always be cautiously worded lawyer speak for do everything by the book!
 
That's not the point though!

By that you'd let someone off for racist language as long as no one found it offensive. it might be low level, you're right, no one on the pitch might find it offensive, but by not sending off for it you're condoning it and not doing your job properly!

Saying no one was offended by offensive language is not a valid excuse for not sending someone off
 
Sheffields Finest said:
We all agree that the language quoted above by San Sag is wrong and has no place on a football field, should you hear such language that you as a referee feel ticks that box of OFFINABUS then no one should be in any doubt that a red card should follow, my point was that for the comments I heard, no-one was offended, no-one was insulted, no-one was abused, had I felt they had been I would have sent him off...

FIFA are never going to send out any document condoning anything bad, it will always be cautiously worded lawyer speak for do everything by the book!
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I put said same scenario to the disciplinary secretary at my F.A. (previously posted) no-one was offended, no-one was insulted, no-one was abused but i was informed it would still be a red card offence as the language was used, regardless, what your own F.A. would interpret is another matter why don't you email them as see what their answer would be.
 
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Sheffields Finest said:
As I said earlier, if the reaction would have been different I would have sent him off. No reaction here, I did have a strong word and got an instant apology so I let it go at that point! This is Div 1parks football! (I accept that the Laws are the Laws, but we have leeway at all times to ref a game as we see fit)
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Um no! leeway, what leeway? .... not in the laws. Referees cannot circumvent the laws of the game just as much as players cannot.
 
I guess a proper defence lawyer and a decent judge would easily pick massive holes in that silly synopsis.... Crazy...Over reaction IMO to send off for that (with no response).....
 
Sheffields Finest said:
I guess a proper defence lawyer and a decent judge would easily pick massive holes in that silly synopsis.... Crazy...Over reaction IMO to send off for that (with no response).....
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It's the words used, not the context nor manner they were used in. You need to accept that otherwise you will cause yourself all sorts of problems in the future.
 
DB said:
It's the words used, not the context nor manner they were used in. You need to accept that otherwise you will cause yourself all sorts of problems in the future.
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No, no, no. Context is everything. Some words have their own context, e.g. the N word, others it's about phrasing, tone, volume, all sorts of things.....
What would you do with a spoken "Are you gay?" or "Are you effing gay?" in a loud angry tone of voice?
 
Mintyref said:
No, no, no. Context is everything. Some words have their own context, e.g. the N word, others it's about phrasing, tone, volume, all sorts of things.....
What would you do with a spoken "Are you gay?" or "Are you effing gay?" in a loud angry tone of voice?
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I disagree. Context is not everything. Your question is not relevant. You could say both of those phrases in any manner and they could insult someone, regardless of whether there is an expletive included or not.

If I hear someone swear, regardless of the context it is used; anger, frustration, joy... I will deal with it. This may mean a quiet word or a loud "langauage!!", it may mean a caution or a sending of. The disciplinary measure I take, that would depend on context, depending on severity and who it was aimed at.

My post was aimed at words, not particularly aimed at sentences. Both of the C-words, the N-word or anything that I believe has the potential to offend or/and upset, I will deal with. Regardless of what context they are used in. Let's face it, if you are saying one of these words, you're not being nice, are you?
 
My company once got a compound rising fine which got up to 23k, when the loss to the revenue in the case was zero, when we pointed out that in their Tax Law book it says that any tax fine must be proportional to the loss to the revenue they eventually backed off and dropped the case... they were being asses!

Now, where there is no victim, no one complained and the perpetrator showed immediate remorse for a moment of stupidity I'm struggling to change my argument in the morning when the same thing happens again. Sorry, Minty and I must be dinasaurs in this modern game.
 
People's vocabulary varies, some members of our society use words we as referees would consider offinabus as part of day to day speech. They use this on the field of play, why are we arbiters of speech that offends no one?
If they change the way they use the words that brings a different connotation, then we may be justified in taking action.
If a black man calls another black man a n#####, is it offinabus?
Why should it be, it is used in this way all of the time. Context has to be the key when considering offinabus.
 
Criminals that break the law every day... so is that okay because it's just what they do?
 
Mintyref said:
People's vocabulary varies, some members of our society use words we as referees would consider offinabus as part of day to day speech. They use this on the field of play, why are we arbiters of speech that offends no one?
If they change the way they use the words that brings a different connotation, then we may be justified in taking action.
If a black man calls another black man a n#####, is it offinabus?
Why should it be, it is used in this way all of the time. Context has to be the key when considering offinabus.
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It is still a racist comment OFFINABUS
 
DB said:
Criminals that break the law every day... so is that okay because it's just what they do?
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In criminal Court John Terry was acquitted, in football court that followed he was found guilty.....

So the next time Wayne Rooney or another professional blurts out "feck off" to the officials are they to send him off because that certainly ain't happening from what i'm watching!!!....and i'm sure thats OFFINABUS by your reckoning!!!
 
Of course that's offinabus!!! Do you not think so?!? Genuinely, I can't believe some of the things I've read on this thread today!

Language and the use of, it's basics!!
 
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