A&H

Sin Bin yellow cards

OnlyUseMeWhistle

OnlyUseMeWhistle

RefChat Addict
Level 4W Referee
What's the actual argument behind not counting a sin bin yellow like a normal yellow card? Avoiding double punishment?

Surely it would send a stronger deterrent if it also counted towards your yellow card count in the game?

Then I wouldn't need to solve a Sudoku puzzle mid game ;)
 
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I’m not sure there really is a sensible argument that holds up properly. The whole point of a sinbin should be to punish offenders further, but not to the point they are sent off - at the moment it doesn’t really do that. The way it works is also illogical and confusing.

The FA seem to be happy with sinbins because it gets the number of dissent cautions down, but there’s a good argument to be made that most referees at grassroots find the whole thing so confusing that they are more reluctant to caution for dissent in the first place.
 
There's also an argument that some referees don't realise that sin bins should still be reported through wholegame, given there's no fine (sorry, "administration charge") associated.
 
OnlyUseMeWhistle said:
What's the actual argument behind not counting a sin bin yellow like a normal yellow card? Avoiding double punishment?

Surely it would send a stronger deterrent if it also counted towards your yellow card count in the game?

Then I wouldn't need to solve a Sudoku puzzle mid game ;)
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The argument is that the player and team is punished because the player misses 10 minutes of the game and the team is down to 10 men
There is therefore no need for additional sanction

The idea hasn't worked because the punishment is quite severe. This makes it 'high tariff' for the referee. At grass roots, referees are therefore frequently ignoring dissent or wrongly classifying it as something else, most often Adopting an Aggressive Attitude. The rule is not applicable to Step 4 and above for good reason... it wouldn't work

The stupidest bit about it, is the prohibited use of a red card in certain scenarios

Sin Bin can be effective, but I'd assert that it's an 'advanced competency' to get the outcome the referee (and FA) wants. Enhanced Respect
The Stepped Approach can be tricky to judge. Use a Sin Bin too early and the referee loses respect, use it too late and respect has long since gone. The Goldilocks Zone is not easy to perfect and is often beyond the competency of those referees Sin Bins were dreamt up for
 
Big Cat said:
The argument is that the player and team is punished because the player misses 10 minutes of the game and the team is down to 10 men
There is therefore no need for additional sanction

The idea hasn't worked because the punishment is quite severe. This makes it 'high tariff' for the referee. At grass roots, referees are therefore frequently ignoring dissent or wrongly classifying it as something else, most often Adopting an Aggressive Attitude. The rule is not applicable to Step 4 and above for good reason... it wouldn't work

The stupidest bit about it, is the prohibited use of a red card in certain scenarios

Sin Bin can be effective, but I'd assert that it's an 'advanced competency' to get the outcome the referee (and FA) wants. Enhanced Respect
The Stepped Approach can be tricky to judge. Use a Sin Bin too early and the referee loses respect, use it too late and respect has long since gone. The Goldilocks Zone is not easy to perfect and is often beyond the competency of those referees Sin Bins were dreamt up for
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Exactly, I also don't get why a player's second instance of dissent shouldn't be a red card?
 
My assumption for why they don't count the same is that it's to limit the amount of time a team is reduced in numbers, and therefore have less of a perceived impact on the outcome of a match while still punishing the individual.

Under current law:
One sin bin = 10 mins with reduced numbers
One sin bin plus one ordinary caution = 10 mins with reduced numbers
Two sin bins = 20 mins with reduced numbers

If sin bins counted like ordinary cautions:
One sin bin = 10 mins with reduced numbers
One sin bin plus one ordinary caution = 10 mins plus the remainder of the match with reduced numbers
Two sin bins = 10 mins plus the remainder of the match with reduced numbers
 
Big Cat said:
The argument is that the player and team is punished because the player misses 10 minutes of the game and the team is down to 10 men
There is therefore no need for additional sanction

The idea hasn't worked because the punishment is quite severe. This makes it 'high tariff' for the referee. At grass roots, referees are therefore frequently ignoring dissent or wrongly classifying it as something else, most often Adopting an Aggressive Attitude. The rule is not applicable to Step 4 and above for good reason... it wouldn't work

The stupidest bit about it, is the prohibited use of a red card in certain scenarios

Sin Bin can be effective, but I'd assert that it's an 'advanced competency' to get the outcome the referee (and FA) wants. Enhanced Respect
The Stepped Approach can be tricky to judge. Use a Sin Bin too early and the referee loses respect, use it too late and respect has long since gone. The Goldilocks Zone is not easy to perfect and is often beyond the competency of those referees Sin Bins were dreamt up for
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Our County FA has noticed a reduction in the use of the Sin Bin over the last 2 seasons.

It may well be for the reasons you describe above but from my own experience, I haven't had to use it nearly as much as previously simply because I've found the verbal threat (from myself) of 10 mins in the bin more often than not serves as the deterrent. :)
 
GraemeS said:
There's also an argument that some referees don't realise that sin bins should still be reported through wholegame, given there's no fine (sorry, "administration charge") associated.
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i may be wrong but was under the impression that sin bin yellows are chargeable to clubs.

I was told for the first 2 years of sin bins the fa gave the county the money for sin bin yellows but this stopped after 2 years.
 
Kent Ref said:
i may be wrong but was under the impression that sin bin yellows are chargeable to clubs.

I was told for the first 2 years of sin bins the fa gave the county the money for sin bin yellows but this stopped after 2 years.
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I heard that, but my reading of it was just that after 2 years the lost income just stopped coming into county.
 
A £5 charge for dissent sin bins in order to fund an FA referee abuse hotline is being considered.
 
george.g said:
Sounds very reactive from the FA, I'm sure that money could be invested in fixing the causes, no?
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Or, it could be invested in properly reviewing the effects sinbins have had in the grassroots game - beyond just looking at statistics at face value. They’ve been in long enough for there to be enough data and enough real experience to paint a decent picture.

Personally I think all sinbins should count as a regular caution, with the ten minutes seen as a mandatory additional punishment for dissent. Makes it much easier - any second offences would therefore result in a second caution and a sending off. At the moment I think some players see the sinbin as license to come back on and earn a non-dissent caution free of charge.
 
SammyT5 said:
Or, it could be invested in properly reviewing the effects sinbins have had in the grassroots game - beyond just looking at statistics at face value. They’ve been in long enough for there to be enough data and enough real experience to paint a decent picture.

Personally I think all sinbins should count as a regular caution, with the ten minutes seen as a mandatory additional punishment for dissent. Makes it much easier - any second offences would therefore result in a second caution and a sending off. At the moment I think some players see the sinbin as license to come back on and earn a non-dissent caution free of charge.
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Yeah I totally agree with the idea of making them act like a normal caution, it would encourage far more referees to use them in my opinion, especially some of the slightly more experienced ones who choose not to.

As a point too, I think it's worth them evaluating if C1-AA cautions have increased, as the alternative to a C2-SB, because I know plenty who say they do that instead.
 
I had a cup game on Sunday, home team winning 3-0 when they concede a penalty in the 93rd minute. A home team player decides to make his feelings known in a loud fashion and he is sent to the sin bin.

After the penalty is scored, he shouts ‘well done referee, you’ve ruined the game’ while applauding directly at me from the sin bin. He received another caution (one that he will actually get fined for as it’s not a sin bin yellow). However it doesn’t sit right with me that he has committed two flagrant acts of dissent and will only get fined for one, having missed a total of two minutes of the match when his team was clearly going to win anyway.
 
The one thing that stands out about all this for me is this. We often play in the worst weather months of the year with the temperature plummeting below zero and rain or hail and such. I really don't think we should be sending a child off to stand around for 10 minutes in those situations. Yellow is a caution and a Red is a removal from the pitch permanental. Anything else is meddling where none is needed,in my opinion.
 
SpecsSaver66 said:
The one thing that stands out about all this for me is this. We often play in the worst weather months of the year with the temperature plummeting below zero and rain or hail and such. I really don't think we should be sending a child off to stand around for 10 minutes in those situations. Yellow is a caution and a Red is a removal from the pitch permanental. Anything else is meddling where none is needed,in my opinion.
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Seriously? 🤦
 
SpecsSaver66 said:
Yep,seriously. I assume you've been on a child welfare course?
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Ok. So what are the substitutes doing?
If you arent using sin bins, when you should be, you are causing serious problems for those of us that wish to do the job properly... You can't not use the sin bin because its a bit cold, or wet!!
The old adage of don't do the crime, springs to mind!!!
 
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