RefSix

Sin bins

#23
2 players arguing over whom is taking the restart is not dissent.
Dissent is public disagreement with a match official's decision.
The referee does not decide who takes pens. Therefore this cannot be dissent. Two players arguing either requires captain/coach to step in and make the decision to de escalate the argument Or they are adopting an aggressive attitude and you caution for C1.
Either way, in your scenario, would have resulted in a permanent dismissal or just 1 caution with the laws applied correctly.
Wrote that on the phone running out of battery, so a bit light on detail. He was cautioned for his reaction to me when I had to intervene to make them take the penalty. I'd still be there now if I had waited any longer. Captain had walked away - it was U16. Dissent caution was correct, only person who wasn't happy with the call after the game was the player. My hope is that for his football future he learns the lesson - it was such a silly card especially as the penalty put them 3-0 up. Down to ten they conceded one fairly quickly, but there wasn't enough time left to suffer further.
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
#25
AA? Sometimes it ain't clear who the player is having a pop at
I had a vision of 2 lads having a pop at each other. Most arguments in football tend to be aggressive but I think I prefer DRP anyway in hindsight. Either way get them both in the book.
That said given the further explanation dissent may have been the right decision although still sounds like one of them got away with being a prat
 

lincs22

Supply League Observer
Staff member
Observer/Tutor
#26
What you doing binning players in leagues not operating temporary dismissals ;)
Unless you referee at Step5 or above, there will be no such leagues in England.

It will be mandatory for all adults league (Saturday and Sunday), all youth leagues, so no exception. The standard code of rules is being amended to reflect this.
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#27
Unless you referee at Step5 or above, there will be no such leagues in England.

It will be mandatory for all adults league (Saturday and Sunday), all youth leagues, so no exception. The standard code of rules is being amended to reflect this.
Will any leagues step 5 or above choose to implement sin bins? Are they forbidden from doing so?
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
#28
Unless you referee at Step5 or above, there will be no such leagues in England.

It will be mandatory for all adults league (Saturday and Sunday), all youth leagues, so no exception. The standard code of rules is being amended to reflect this.
It was a tongue in cheek reply to what was actually written that suggested he had binned 10 players in leagues that were not operating sin bin. I am aware that sin bins are coming in ;)
 

Cheshire Ref

RefChat Addict
#30
I umpired hockey for ten years where you go green, yellow, red and any yellow was a sin bin. Started football this season and youth was no bins, adult was for C2.

I love them, brilliant. I often step by giving (where relevant/possible) an IDK FK for dissent first. Get odd questions from players about the legality of that, but often it's enough. Generally the bin is used in my poorest games, ref well and you don't get dissent.

The bin card should be blue, not yellow. Think that way and it helps.

Definitely write the time down, particularly time back on. I find it sticks in my brain if I've written it down. Or get a posh watch that does it all for you.

Once you've given a bin the players self police. Except the thick ones....

Game I did a few weeks back I gave a C2 yellow, player apologised after the game for the dissent. Coach said I was the first ref in three months to use the bin but they approved. Following week I did a L1 academy U16 game with no bin, gave a C2 yellow as two players argued over who took a penalty and I had to intervene then 2 minutes later a second yellow for a wild tackle from the same player. With a bin that would never happen as he would have calmed down - that is another reason I am a fan.
Just another query, i am not sure if i am reading this correctly. You start by giving a IDFK for dissent, is this with or without the caution or sin bin? You cant give one without the other.
 

zarathustra

RefChat Addict
#31
If you are giving an IDFK without a caution (and sin bin where appropriate) then you are incorrect in law and the players are right to question the legality of it.

IFAB said:
An indirect free kick is awarded if a player:

  • plays in a dangerous manner
  • impedes the progress of an opponent without any contact being made
  • is guilty of dissent, using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures or other verbal offences
  • prevents the goalkeeper from releasing the ball from the hands or kicks or attempts to kick the ball when the goalkeeper is in the process of releasing it
  • commits any other offence, not mentioned in the Laws, for which play is stopped to caution or send off a player
 

zarathustra

RefChat Addict
#32
They will not be implementing them.
Then I guess the question we should be asking The FA is why not.

I appreciate that there needs to be a gradual implementation to iron out the process etc, but if they are serious about dealing with dissent then they really need to roll this out all the way to the top eventually.
 

ASM

Moderator
Staff member
#33
Then I guess the question we should be asking The FA is why not.

I appreciate that there needs to be a gradual implementation to iron out the process etc, but if they are serious about dealing with dissent then they really need to roll this out all the way to the top eventually.
Except that would require IFAB to make further modifications to the LOTG. Currently sin bins are only sanctioned for “youth, disability and grassroots” football.
 

zarathustra

RefChat Addict
#34
Except that would require IFAB to make further modifications to the LOTG. Currently sin bins are only sanctioned for “youth, disability and grassroots” football.
Then perhaps IFAB should be asked why.

If it works at grassroots I can't think of a good reason why it vodnt be rolled out across all football
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
#35
Except that would require IFAB to make further modifications to the LOTG. Currently sin bins are only sanctioned for “youth, disability and grassroots” football.
Given they have brought it in at step 5 and below though I would say they have contradicted that, as it is one heck of a push to describe supply league football, where you could easily have upwards of 100 paying spectators, as "grassroots football".
 

JH

RefChat Addict
#36
Given they have brought it in at step 5 and below though I would say they have contradicted that, as it is one heck of a push to describe supply league football, where you could easily have upwards of 100 paying spectators, as "grassroots football".
Have the FA/Premier League not already contradicted the VAR protocol for next season anyway? Or is it within the LOTG to not allow the referee to go to the screen?
 

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#37
They won't tackle dissent at the top level because they absolutely must keep their product (the players) on the FOP
Despite farting about with Sin Bins, vitriolic abuse aimed towards referees won't change at any level because the professional game sets the example to players the world over. Maybe SB's will reduce the number of low level C2's, but the change as papering over the cracks because they don't want to deal with abusive behaviour from professionals for commercial reasons
 

GraemeS

RefChat Addict
#38
Have the FA/Premier League not already contradicted the VAR protocol for next season anyway? Or is it within the LOTG to not allow the referee to go to the screen?
They're not "not allowing" referees to go to the screen, they're encouraging them not to do so unless necessary. One of those would be contradicting the LOTG, but instead, they're simply offering guidance regarding how it should be implemented. And presumably, compliance (or not) with that directive, will be reflected in the FA's observation reporting.....
 
Likes: JH

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
#39
To develop this a bit further. It's increasingly apparent to me that we're all slaves to an amateurish rule book, the guidance on which is increasingly influenced by commercial forces in the professional game. We all know it would be reasonably straight forward to abate verbal offences, but it categorically must come from top down. Players simply copy the behaviour of their idols. Full stop
Referees are valiantly trying to manage very difficult games, following absurd guidance that ultimately has originates from very questionable motives
 

Nij

Active Member
#40
Given they have brought it in at step 5 and below though I would say they have contradicted that, as it is one heck of a push to describe supply league football, where you could easily have upwards of 100 paying spectators, as "grassroots football".
Is that meant to be "one hundred paying spectators" or "one thousand"? How much are they paying for these tickets, a couple of pound or dozens?
Because I would certainly see the former as grassroots, if clubs remain largely amateur/volunteer/non-profit and teams are locally based using players who grew up in the area.
Seems like the FA have thought the same.
 
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